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Views on piracy. Honesty please
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Dharma Lab
Started Topics :
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342
Posted : Mar 12, 2010 22:26
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I'm not singling you out, or just trying to be argumentative, but your observations bring a few things to mind.
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On 2010-03-12 19:56, ohshit wrote:
So it's possible to do great software and release it for free. |
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Agreed. It's possible, but figuring out how to make money on it is difficult. Staying afloat long enough until you can figure it out is probably the most difficult part.
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On 2010-03-12 19:56, ohshit wrote:
In the music sw market there are some smart things that i like to point out:
1)prices should be reasonable |
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Why? Price is sometimes a way to filter out the customers you don't want. Making your product available to everyone isn't always the goal. People will have different definitions of reasonable, but I think Apple is a clear example.
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On 2010-03-12 19:56, ohshit wrote:
2)licenses should be different for home users and pros |
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To what end?
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On 2010-03-12 19:56, ohshit wrote:
3)copy protection are a waste of cpu cycle |
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Sometimes, yes. If the copy protection could work without additional resource drain, how would you feel about it?
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On 2010-03-12 19:56, ohshit wrote:
4)remember that is better to sell 10 times more for a price 10 times lower than the inverse |
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Whenever I hear someone say 'better', my first reaction is 'better it too vague, specifically how is it better?' And don't take this as an attack, but how do you know this information?
My goal in questioning is to separate ideas, from assumption, from facts. Even geniuses need to work thru this.
  Keep The Faith,
Christian K. |
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ohshit
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
45
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605
Posted : Mar 12, 2010 23:14
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On 2010-03-12 19:56, ohshit wrote:
4)remember that is better to sell 10 times more for a price 10 times lower than the inverse |
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Whenever I hear someone say 'better', my first reaction is 'better it too vague, specifically how is it better?' And don't take this as an attack, but how do you know this information?
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More users means more testing and more users suggestion through the feedback (forum or email typically).
Reaper, Renoise and U-He got a lot of input from their users and is obvious that more users = more inputs = more improvements.
Copy protections: are a pain in the ass even for the legit buyer. I want to pay and download, stop.
Different licenses: if you have profit from a sw IMHO you should pay it more. It sound really so strange?
High prices: obviously you are free to set prohibitive prices in the same way customers are free to use warezed version of you sw. I am not speaking about waves. LOL. Seriously, like above all the software houses should hopes to have more users as possible.
Free VST: ok, i admit that this is visionary but listen: coca-cola and other brands are used to sponsor music festivals, videogames and sport shows: are you sure that they don't want to sponsor a software that a lot of young musician will use?
To understand better my concept of modern marketplace have a look at the appstore for iPhone...
http://soundcloud.com/alphadelphi |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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2822
Posted : Mar 13, 2010 00:30
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On 2010-03-12 19:22, braininavat wrote:
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On 2010-03-12 08:36, willsanquil wrote:
IDK, I don't really think piracy is a big issue at all when it comes to music software. Name me some software companies in the music business that are dying due to piracy.
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Is that because your...stupid???
Native instruments hasn't bothered putting a new version of reaktor in 5 years because its a waste of money...They have practically transformed from an innovative synth company to a soundware company. WHY? Because they have to go to the bottom of the barrel to stay in business..
Its time to pay the piper, there is no more FM7s to come compared to what was before it.its just a waste of time and resources.
While its fun to have some dipshit hippy attitude, "everything should be freee maaaaaaaaannnn"...it leads to alot of nothing.
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I am not a complete idiot, in that I know obviously that software companies need to make money in order to produce product - however, I just checked the price of FM8.
$200. Yeah fucking right. Maybe the reason there isn't going to be a new version is they price it to such a level that encourages piracy. I have FM8 and have used it a good bit, and for my money its nowhere NEAR $200. maybe $50. For christ sake, the entirety of it is under 100 megs! I mean, if you have Omnisphere's FIFTY gig library I can see you charging $300 or so for it, but $200 for FM8 is just greedy.
If you hang on to old business models and price your customers out of the market, then I have no problem with you going out of business or your software getting pirated like crazy- there are plenty of smart people making quality software who don't harbor such archaic methods.
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Veracohr
Started Topics :
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Posted : Mar 13, 2010 02:09
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In my opinion:
All the arguments I've seen defending the use of pirated software are justifications. I agree with some of the statements in this thread, like cost vs. value, idealistic visions of moneyless digital society, etc. But I don't think any of that makes pirating software OK.
To me it's a simple matter: someone produced something and wants to be paid for their effort, and you're using their product but refusing to pay. It's wrong. The detriment or lack thereof to the company is irrelevant. It's stealing.
However...I'm not going to try to change anyone's philosophy on an internet forum because I know it's not possible. It's not even possible in person. But I do want to say: own up to it. Admit that you're doing something morally wrong and that you don't care. I've used software that I didn't pay for, and I admit that I did it without care.
Everyone in the world likes getting as much as possible for as little as possible. It's just the way of humans. People have much less problem stealing software because they can get away with it. What about the computer you're using to run this software? Did you walk into a store, pull it off the shelf and walk out without paying? Probably not, it probably didn't even cross your mind because you know you can't get away with it. But because you can get away with stealing software lots of people do it.
- If you want to espouse ideals of cost/value, free software etc., practice those ideals. Use only software that fits your acceptable cost/value structure. Use only free software. Don't use $500 without paying for it just because you think it SHOULD be free/low cost. SHOULD is not IS.
- They make demos for trying software. That's what they are for. Live with it.
- You can't make music without pirated software? For one thing, that's not accurate. For another thing, boo-hoo. Find a way to afford it, or use free stuff. There's tons of free stuff out there.
I may not agree with it, but I can deal with people pirating software. I can't deal with people who do so and try to claim lofty philosophies for doing so. |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Mar 13, 2010 02:50
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Personally I don't pirate music software to fit some moral code, to stick it to the man, or to laugh at how much fake money I saved...I do it for a very simple reason - to make music with the best tools available to me, regardless of my fiscal situation.
Certainly, you can make music with demo software, and you can use only free software...but in my experience demo software is either crippled or on a time leash, and free software more often than not is garbage compared to the expensive stuff.
Another thing - say you know that some day, you really want to use ableton and omnisphere and a bunch of other expensive software, but you don't have the money for it at the moment. Do you suck it up and use free or demo tools for a long time until you can afford 'teh good stuff' or...try before buy it and get really good at using it, then buy it when you can? Of course there are other options besides those two, but piracy is not always bad.
What about people in developing countries? They should be denied access to good software because they're poor?
Whether your moral compass likes it or not, piracy elevates our collective creative potential by making good tools available to LOTS more people than would otherwise have access to them, and in my eyes that is absolutely amazing. |
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*eLliSDee*
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
671
Posted : Mar 13, 2010 04:28
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i'll tell you the story of how the little pirate in me was born.
long time ago, when i was younger and still in school. I was really eager learn to get into developing software. only my family could not afford to budget for the $300 Visual Basic 6 Suite and courses.
So i began to formulate a 'lofty philosophy'; that there is no sense for me to be disadvantaged to rich folks. if only a certain class can afford to buy and study VB, then karl marx is right + this whole capitalist world if fucktup
so i grabbed my eye-patch and wooden leg. and i sailed all the way to DonkeyServer2 do set things right in the world.
the end.
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Veracohr
Started Topics :
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Posted : Mar 13, 2010 05:09
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On 2010-03-13 02:50, willsanquil wrote:
in my experience demo software is either crippled or on a time leash |
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Of course it is, they want you to buy it. It wouldn't make any sense to provide a full version for free AND for money.
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| free software more often than not is garbage compared to the expensive stuff. |
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True, but maybe if people who claim that software should be free actually supported the people who make software for free, they might be inclined to make better software. I made that comment because there were a few posts in this thread to the effect that classic business models no longer apply to software and it should be free; it's completely hypocritical to say such a thing but still pirate software that is made for profit when there is software available that fits the paradigm.
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| Another thing - say you know that some day, you really want to use ableton and omnisphere and a bunch of other expensive software, but you don't have the money for it at the moment. Do you suck it up and use free or demo tools for a long time until you can afford 'teh good stuff' or...try before buy it and get really good at using it, then buy it when you can? |
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For me - yes. There's lots of stuff I wish I could have but I can't afford it, so I suck it up and live without.
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| What about people in developing countries? They should be denied access to good software because they're poor? |
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That's not the right way to look at the issue. Nobody is denying anybody anything. Software isn't a right, especially not commodity software like music-making stuff. You said you have a pair of Tapco monitors, right? What if you wanted a pair of Dynaudio or ADAM monitors but only wanted to pay the same price as the Tapco, do you think anybody would listen if you said they were "denying" you good monitors?
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| Whether your moral compass likes it or not, piracy elevates our collective creative potential by making good tools available to LOTS more people than would otherwise have access to them, and in my eyes that is absolutely amazing.
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For me, the degree to which piracy affects producers and the reasons for which it is done don't change whether or not it is OK.
I'm not usually so direct and confrontational, but questions of morality bring that out in me. |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Mar 13, 2010 08:12
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I like the fact that piracy is an equalizer - that someone on the ground level can have access to the same tools as a professional. I enjoy the destruction of monetized barriers to creative potential and feel that as a whole the world is better off with piracy than without it, in that it enables new producers. I think that music creation *should* be a right, just how a great majority of the world's populace feels that internet access is a right.
There are infinite shades of grey when it comes to your moral boundaries here, what is "OK" is not static, at least when it comes to software distribution.
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dija
IsraTrance Junior Member
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48
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483
Posted : Mar 13, 2010 09:11
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Whether your moral compass likes it or not, piracy elevates our collective creative potential by making good tools available to LOTS more people than would otherwise have access to them, and in my eyes that is absolutely amazing.
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Agreed. What about the 13 year old musical genius who wants to produce but doesn't have a job and his parents live paycheck to paycheck.
My personal experiences through pirated software:
Rule 1: Don't make money using warez softwares. (agreed in popular music industry where you actually get paid as opposed to a flight, some food, some acid and a couch).
When I was 13 I got into some legal trouble. I was bored and had a leg monitor on and couldnt leave the house. I discovered a program called visual basic. I was fascinated with these programs at the time on AOL known as progs. I discovered they were coded using visual basic. I went on to develop an interest in programming. Had I not had access to the tools I needed to program I would never have had this opportunity. They don't have out copies of programming software at middle school.
Also, I discovered that I enjoyed web design. Luckily, I could design webpages with notepad which didn't cost anything. I also needed a 600 dollar copy of adobe photoshop unfortunately to make the design of my sites. So I got it. However, my windows was pirated and ALWAYS has been. You can build an incredible computer now days for 800 bones (tower only) and then windows costs 200+ for the good edition. So 25%+ of your computer is this piece of shit OS bill gates stole. Not to mention, when you setup windows you have to spend 2 hours going through all the options and services.msc and registry values, msconfig, remove files, uninstall programs that are unnecessary. Basically repair windows xp after install (i dont know about vista/7).
Also, it is actually EASIER to download something thats pirated than it is to purchase it. I find it press download and I have it faster than a store could get it to me. In many cases faster than I could drive to the store and buy it. So not only is it free, it's also more convenient. Convenience sells. So these companies are going to have to come up with a streamlined approach and that's the bottom line.
http://www.youtube.com/user/trawhi (tutorials)
http://www.myspace.com/eusidmusic |
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freechameleon
Started Topics :
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91
Posted : Mar 13, 2010 13:41
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On 2010-03-13 02:09, Veracohr wrote:
To me it's a simple matter: someone produced something and wants to be paid for their effort, and you're using their product but refusing to pay. It's wrong. The detriment or lack thereof to the company is irrelevant. It's stealing.
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Admit that you're doing something morally wrong and that you don't care. I've used software that I didn't pay for, and I admit that I did it without care.
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funny statements in your post.
stealing in my eyes is to charge more for a product than you/your company needs to live well. so please start telling me companies that don't produce for/ dream of wealth instead of survival!
it's a simple but effective way:
how do we make as many costumers as possible believe that the product is worth 500 euros, despite it costs us only 100 euros in research and production?
or:
how do we get 50000 people to buy that software although we already have nice profit after the first 10000 units?
or:
how do we get the average middle-class man to buy software for 5000 euro for his hobby, although he spent most of his money on his ipod+iphone, his digital SLR for his family snapshots, his mega-sized-flat screen to better see the commercials and his SUV to drive 5 min to work?
you want to support this theft on the consumer? then go for it!
->
moral is not what is written in an imperfect lawsystem, that is only temporarely valid in a confined area. |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Mar 13, 2010 15:06
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On 2010-03-13 13:41, freechameleon wrote:
stealing in my eyes is to charge more for a product than you/your company needs to live well. so please start telling me companies that don't produce for/ dream of wealth instead of survival!
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i don t see it at stealing, no one force you to buy their products, it s making money and there is nothing wrong with it?it don t justify piracy.if you use pirated softwares just assume it,you guys are trying to have good moral , i dont know how to say...listeing some of you guys we should all use piracy cause it seems a good thing to do lol |
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naga
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
40
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204
Posted : Mar 13, 2010 15:37
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E-KL!PSE upset:
Only 14 posts and you come to fess up here. And whats upset? cant find it from my dictionary, I think it's just teens and womens talk of being interested in other business while still looking for themselfs :)
"" |
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Veracohr
Started Topics :
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6
Posted : Mar 13, 2010 20:46
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On 2010-03-13 13:41, freechameleon wrote:
moral is not what is written in an imperfect lawsystem, that is only temporarely valid in a confined area.
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Law and morality are mutually exclusive. I don't base my opinions on laws. |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
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803
Posted : Mar 13, 2010 21:22
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Everybody's gotten this issue of "morality" into the equation.
I think that's fine for spiritual people, but being an "sort of atheist" my only option is that people construct morals from their own projected common sense. (And the school of hard knocks too)
SO if everything is "made up" to some lesser or greater degree, then why bother getting all emotional about it?
Because moralists are manipulative, and change peoples world views to accept guilt. Don't believe em.
Morals may help us live, but they are the equivalent of a set of driving rules. They don't make sense always(like as if someone didnt think it through very well), they don't always apply, they change from country to country, and are generally useless for dealing with new developments, because they were made up to deal with situations in the past. Yet the moralist assholes will subtly insert them in your world view.
Now cheating is a bad thing, in the same way as driving rules say its bad to run a red light but what happens when there's never a way to get caught or hit by another car driving on a green? Like when people lie about being happy at work? Cheating no longer applies as a metaphor, and instead it becomes every day common sense.
But these manipulative doods view it very differently, they reckon that If they could warp your mind to see things their way everything would be cool, since you would be restricted just as well by the cage they set up in your mind. And if you see through it, thats when they show their real colors and get mediaval with the manipulation and start bringing in the government, who are the masters propaganda (the gov leaders has manipulated society into paying for the army and police force which keeps them subservient to the same manipulative leaders, now thats some serious manipulation and a high stakes game I can appreciate. anyway)
What they are attempting in legally prosecuting pirates, is to punish cheaters who don't pay and discourage copying, but in reality there's no point in suing someone who has no cash, so they have to stoop to manipulative threats, which I personally find amusing and insulting.
So just ignore the moralists, if you don't have a pile of money, then there's almost no chance you'll get caught, resist the manipulation and carry on with common sense.
NOW
Sustainability is another thing entirely. IF an industries products cannot be sold for more than what it costs to make them, then that industry is not sustainable. Cold hard fact. No amount of moralizing and manipulation will change this fact.
Either the products have to become sustainable or cease to exist, so pirates out there, dont feel guilty, you're not killing an industry, you're helping the entrepreneurs revise and make their business models sustainable. For example the shift to hardware.
Also don't worry about losing old industries. There's constantly new stuff being made up all the time, to fulfill needs. WE'll run out when theres no more humans trying to make a living. |
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*eLliSDee*
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
40
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671
Posted : Mar 14, 2010 00:10
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hear that, "COMMON SENCE", you manipulative assholes. :-D
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