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Using Bob Katz K-System to mix?
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Babaluma
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
729
Posted : Jun 25, 2012 09:38
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On 2012-06-25 02:37, treetrunks wrote:
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On 2012-06-14 12:59, Babaluma wrote:
if you use any of the k-system calibrated monitor gain/metering systems, how they were designed to be used, then your final masters will sound very much quieter than most commercial music of the last fifteen years, when played next to them on other systems.
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This is a common misconception. It ignores the fact that the DJ will match the gains of each track, that the sound system will utilise limiters and compressors, and that the system's maximum output has physical limitations.
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nope, not ignoring that fact at all. i even explicitly state it in my third post in this very thread (7th post down).
i still stand by this:
"if you use any of the k-system calibrated monitor gain/metering systems, how they were designed to be used, then your final masters will sound very much quieter than most commercial music of the last fifteen years, when played next to them on other systems."
master a track to the k-12 standard and play it next to a commercial track in a similar modern electronic/pop genre (for ease lets say a full on psy trance track). chances are, that WITHOUT touching the gain control, your K-12 track will sound much quieter.
of course, as I have already said, any DJ worth their salt will be gain matching tracks whilst cuing up the next one, but even this skill seems to be getting lost in the loudness war...
i was just trying to make the point, that whilst I applaud the k-system, and think it's a step in the right direction against over-limiting and clipping, and wish more people would use it, probably the vast majority of popular music released today is a lot louder than any of bob katz's scales.
  http://hermetechmastering.com : http://www.discogs.com/artist/Gregg+Janman : http://soundcloud.com/babaluma |
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treetrunks
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
56
Posted : Jun 25, 2012 20:43
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On 2012-06-25 09:38, Babaluma wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-06-25 02:37, treetrunks wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-06-14 12:59, Babaluma wrote:
if you use any of the k-system calibrated monitor gain/metering systems, how they were designed to be used, then your final masters will sound very much quieter than most commercial music of the last fifteen years, when played next to them on other systems.
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This is a common misconception. It ignores the fact that the DJ will match the gains of each track, that the sound system will utilise limiters and compressors, and that the system's maximum output has physical limitations.
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nope, not ignoring that fact at all. i even explicitly state it in my third post in this very thread (7th post down).
i still stand by this:
"if you use any of the k-system calibrated monitor gain/metering systems, how they were designed to be used, then your final masters will sound very much quieter than most commercial music of the last fifteen years, when played next to them on other systems."
master a track to the k-12 standard and play it next to a commercial track in a similar modern electronic/pop genre (for ease lets say a full on psy trance track). chances are, that WITHOUT touching the gain control, your K-12 track will sound much quieter.
of course, as I have already said, any DJ worth their salt will be gain matching tracks whilst cuing up the next one, but even this skill seems to be getting lost in the loudness war...
i was just trying to make the point, that whilst I applaud the k-system, and think it's a step in the right direction against over-limiting and clipping, and wish more people would use it, probably the vast majority of popular music released today is a lot louder than any of bob katz's scales.
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I agree with your last statement, but it does not mean anything in the real world application of a DJ playing the tracks at a party.
We can all reference 2 tracks against each other, on the most basic of equipment, and still hear a difference in perceived loudness. A couple of dB will do it, but it doesn't matter if it's 2dB or 6 dB, come party time the DJ will negate any difference. |
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Babaluma
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
729
Posted : Jun 25, 2012 22:45
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treetrunks
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
56
Posted : Jun 25, 2012 23:28
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On 2012-06-13 16:23:13, dmtoad wrote:
How does it translate in parties PA? (is it loud enougth)?
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Babaluma
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
729
Posted : Jun 25, 2012 23:41
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well, yes, i see your point! 
for that question, i'd argue that the less limiting applied, the better it will sound. so going for something like the k-12 or k-14 would probably sound better than something that had been fully crushed. but i have a good friend (dog of tears) i master for, who insists that it has to hit -10RMS or below, to really pump and groove on a large PA. he plays psy out a lot, so who am i to judge?
http://hermetechmastering.com : http://www.discogs.com/artist/Gregg+Janman : http://soundcloud.com/babaluma |
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treetrunks
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
56
Posted : Jun 26, 2012 00:27
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On 2012-06-25 23:41, Babaluma wrote:
well, yes, i see your point!
for that question, i'd argue that the less limiting applied, the better it will sound. so going for something like the k-12 or k-14 would probably sound better than something that had been fully crushed. but i have a good friend (dog of tears) i master for, who insists that it has to hit -10RMS or below, to really pump and groove on a large PA. he plays psy out a lot, so who am i to judge?
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I presume you mean above -10RMS.
My personal preference is to leave some dynamics in, being conservative with both compression and limiting. This is a personal preference, I think it sounds better this way, it doesn't mean it sounds better to everyone. It is not a black and white subject , there are many shades of grey.
It would seem we both have a similar take on dynamics, however, we may get there in different ways.
I no longer use the K-System. I believe in a point of reference, as everything is relative after all. I do not believe that a 1dB incremented stepped monitoring controller is actually necassary. In practice it doesn't really offer any more real worth than a calibrated reference point. A calibrated dim switch works very well for this. |
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Babaluma
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
729
Posted : Jun 26, 2012 00:49
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yeah, i think we actually agree on most things! i way prefer a more dynamic sound, always have, just in my professional work i am very often asked to make it louder than ideal (in my view). sad, but true!
i know calibrated 1dB steps on a monitor controller are not necessary, but i have personally found it extremely enlightening and helpful in my own work. you're right, calibrated is the key.
not sure about dim switches. pots aren't so good due to low tolerances (especially at the lower settings, where, with a stereo source to monitors, for example, you can be left with severe stereo drift), but something like the goldpoint stepped switches work really well for this, and you can even DIY. i have a friend who just built one.
i also don't use the k-system. i did for a year or two, until i "took the training wheels off", and worked out a system that seems to work well for me.
http://hermetechmastering.com : http://www.discogs.com/artist/Gregg+Janman : http://soundcloud.com/babaluma |
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treetrunks
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
56
Posted : Jun 26, 2012 00:56
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On 2012-06-26 00:49, Babaluma wrote:
pots aren't so good due to low tolerances (especially at the lower settings, where, with a stereo source to monitors, for example, you can be left with severe stereo drift),
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This is very true, but can be avoided if the gain on the monitors is adjusted correctly so that you are not working in the lower settings of the pot. |
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Babaluma
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
729
Posted : Jun 26, 2012 01:11
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even so, most pot's tolerances are around 5% or worse, so i wouldn't want to trust critical stereo adjustment decisions on a mix, to a cheap pot. i have had bad experiences of this with cheap mixers before. far better to go for matched switches, like the goldpoints i referenced before:
http://www.goldpt.com/
much more expensive than pots, for sure, but when paying clients are relying on you, the piece of mind it ensures more than makes up for it.
my crookwood console uses matched, passive, balanced, gas filled relay switches under digital control. perfectly matched at any gain level. it can also match different sources to within a quarter dB of each other. great for A/Bing different processes in the analogue or digital domain with the original file etc., and not confusing louder with better.
not saying any of this stuff is necessary at all, it's a luxury for sure, but i can tell you it has really opened my ears to things i hadn't heard before, and has allowed me to work faster, and with much more confidence.
anyway, rant over! gotta get to bed...  nice chatting with you today treetrunks!
http://hermetechmastering.com : http://www.discogs.com/artist/Gregg+Janman : http://soundcloud.com/babaluma |
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