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Treble advice!
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Scolopendra
Started Topics :
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64
Posted : Feb 19, 2010 20:49:01
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I've read some different opinions about treble. I am wondering if I should try to achieve the sufficient amount of treble during mixing by EQ'ing individual tracks, groups of leads/rhythm tracks, and maybe adding harmonic excitation, saturation etc. Or if the results will be better if you leave it up to the mastering process to bring up the treble..
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soulfood
IsraTrance Junior Member
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10
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875
Posted : Feb 19, 2010 21:38
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No, you really want your tracks to sound nice and bright to begin with.
Program bright sounds if you want brightness. Don't use tools. With the exception of distortion, but only to get a distored sound. I'd never program a synth line then distort it afterwards. It would be programmed with the distortion on as I go.
If you're doing a good job of programming your sounds in the first place you shouldn't have to add any treble at all.
Maybe what you need is less bass.
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minddoctorsmakeacid
IsraTrance Full Member
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74
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577
Posted : Feb 20, 2010 03:07
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I agree with almost everything Soulfood said with the exeption of the following:
<< I'd never program a synth line then distort it afterwards. It would be programmed with the distortion on as I go. >>
Some soft synths have a horrible digital sounding distortion that screws up they're sound. On cases like this I use a Amp Simulator. |
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soulfood
IsraTrance Junior Member
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875
Posted : Feb 20, 2010 03:45
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Quote:
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On 2010-02-20 03:07, minddoctorsmakeacid wrote:
Some soft synths have a horrible digital sounding distortion that screws up they're sound. On cases like this I use a Amp Simulator.
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You misunderstand. I wasn't specifying the order in the chain to place the distortion, I was saying to get the sound you want with the distortion in the chain before you finalise the actual programming of the midi/performance etc.
Like when you play an overdriven guitar the pickups accent a whole load of different hamrmonics that sound better when you tweak them in a different way than say... picking open strings on an acoustic. |
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minddoctorsmakeacid
IsraTrance Full Member
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577
Posted : Feb 20, 2010 15:13
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Sorry mate. I did misundertood, Im with you on that one. If we make it sound good when it's raw effects will work best for shore. |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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162
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8087
Posted : Feb 20, 2010 16:14
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Quote:
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On 2010-02-19 20:49:01, Scolopendra wrote:
I've read some different opinions about treble. I am wondering if I should try to achieve the sufficient amount of treble during mixing by EQ'ing individual tracks, groups of leads/rhythm tracks, and maybe adding harmonic excitation, saturation etc. Or if the results will be better if you leave it up to the mastering process to bring up the treble..
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i agree with soulfood i rarely eq or use exciter to boost trebble on my synths and they don t sound that good over 12k anyway,lot of producers are deaf in these frequencies with age,parties and studio work...i guess lot of mix are too bright for someone with good hearing and the more the track is played loud the less you hear the mediums and the more you hear bass and highs.for my taste i likem ore something sounding dark than bright, one make you want to push the volume up on ur speakers(means it s a good mix to me ) and the other the oposite (compression also is a big part in that)
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Feb 20, 2010 19:43
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I use Logic's guitar amp Pro day in day out.
On another note, in order to get a nice clean top end, I find I need to high pass a lot of synth lines (tha tI want to sound bright) at round 16K, with a steep slope that somewhat exaggerates the cut off frequency, yet cuts all the really high end stuff, leaving space for hats, crashes, top end rhythmic parts, to do their thing in that band of the spectrum, whithout making a smearing mess of the top end. Something I did not care to do for the first album and most of the second, since I only recently have discovered that and do it for every tune we've done for the 3rd album, so far.
It sounds like you are doing the opposite, but it actually helps me have better control over what thing is going to work the top end and in what way.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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Airi
Airi
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
76
Posted : Feb 25, 2010 14:16
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hello
as to distorting already written synth-lines, I find it totally acceptable to add the distortion afterwards, just to see how it affects the sequence in matters of richness and punch. A later added distortion followed by a compressor can help a lot to give more presence to the sound.
Yet I have a question about exciters or ways to give that cristally high end to sounds, where I still find it difficult.
Can anyone recommend me a good exciter or anything comprable?
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klippel
Stereofeld
Started Topics :
91
Posts :
1153
Posted : Feb 26, 2010 12:35
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Quote:
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On 2010-02-20 19:43, disco hooligans wrote:
I find I need to high pass a lot of synth lines (tha tI want to sound bright) at round 16K, with a steep slope that somewhat exaggerates the cut off frequency, yet cuts all the really high end stuff, leaving space for hats, crashes, top end rhythmic parts
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highpass @16khz?
you mean lp right? and the resonance to boost at 16k and with the rest above cut out to give air for the hats.. would make sense to me 
http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/stereofeld-frequenzwechsel
"I've always been a believer in musical repetition to draw in the listener and make the music hypnotic. Another thing I believe in is repetition." Alan Parsons |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Feb 26, 2010 20:08
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Quote:
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On 2010-02-26 12:35, klippel wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-02-20 19:43, disco hooligans wrote:
I find I need to high pass a lot of synth lines (tha tI want to sound bright) at round 16K, with a steep slope that somewhat exaggerates the cut off frequency, yet cuts all the really high end stuff, leaving space for hats, crashes, top end rhythmic parts
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highpass @16khz?
you mean lp right? and the resonance to boost at 16k and with the rest above cut out to give air for the hats.. would make sense to me
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doh, yes high cut at 16k is what I mean.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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95
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5380
Posted : Feb 26, 2010 20:49
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Good advice from Disco Hooligans re. lopassing stuff. Getting rid of the 'fizz' from sounds that don't need it does the same for top-end clarity that hipassing everything other than kick and bass does for the bottom end.
From my perspective as a mastering engineer it's less important that the unmastered mix is nice and bright, but more important that it's what I call 'internally consistent', ie. the top end of all sounds in the track is bright or dull by the same amount (or appropriately different according to the needs of the mix). If one or two sounds stick out of the mix as having much more (or less) treble than the rest it can be very difficult to correct for.
Conversely, if for instance your monitors have hugely loud tweeters and your room is very reflective, so that - to get it sounding good in your room - you end up mixing everything above 3K in your mix 18dB lower than frequencies below that, it's relatively simple to compensate as long as your engineering is good enough so that the mix sounds good in my studio with that low level of high end.
As ever, the better YOUR skills, the better your track will be once its mastered, but even the best engineers will turn in mixes with varying amounts of bass or treble if their monitoring system (monitors, room) lie to them.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Scolopendra
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
64
Posted : Feb 27, 2010 01:22
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Thanks for all the response!
Thank you Colin OOOD! Useful tip and useful information, this answers my question(s)!
Say... from your perspective as a mastering engineer, when you're hired by someone to master their track; do you include an open dialogue with your client? For example: do you send him detailed feedback on how the mix might be altered to achieve a better result in the mastering process? (thinking of peak points, distortion, freq specter, levels etc.) I'm not thinking of feedback for the song, but very detailed technical aspects.
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Scolopendra
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
64
Posted : Feb 27, 2010 03:42
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I'm wondering the same thing about stereo image; is it better to not overdo it in the mixing process so that you will reduce phase problems to a minimum, so that the mastering engineer can broaden it? |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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Posted : Feb 27, 2010 03:54
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I don't tend to comment on the non-technical aspects of music people send me, whether it's to master or just for comment; even without taking into consideration the professional attitude and detachment necessary when working with other people's creative output, I don't think it's up to me to judge whether a track is 'good' or 'bad' - and whether I personally like a track or not really isn't (or shouldn't be) important to anyone.
I'm happy to give technical advice if it's asked for, or if there are issues with the mix which make getting a good master unreasonably difficult - or if a client is or appears to be someone who would welcome that sort of constructive technical criticism of their work. And not everyone is. However the process of giving detailed advice like this, and waiting for new mixes, then maybe advising again and waiting for more new mixes... all this can often multiply the time the whole mastering process takes, which er... um... I find frustrating :$ I just want to get stuck in and make the best out of whatever mix I've been asked to master! Plus I don't get paid for giving advice... maybe I should start?  But I like a challenge, and the occasional rescue job can be fun (and can often turn out surprisingly well!). Having said that, it can be immensely satisfying to give advice and then to be sent a second mix of a track that brings the whole thing to life and makes a really good master possible. Anyway, if someone is unsure enough about their production for advice and remixing to be needed before a good master is possible, the chances are that the best thing for the track would be for me to both mix and master it.
Sometimes the open dialog with the client consists of them telling me why my master doesn't quite hit the spot they were aiming for, and discussing ways in which I can improve the sound. For this kind of discussion to be viable though, I need to have confidence that the client knows their shit and has access to an accurate monitoring system.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Feb 27, 2010 04:06
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Quote:
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On 2010-02-27 03:42, Scolopendra wrote:
I'm wondering the same thing about stereo image; is it better to not overdo it in the mixing process so that you will reduce phase problems to a minimum, so that the mastering engineer can broaden it?
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I think you should aim for making your track sound as good as you can in your studio, including the stereo image. Different sounds in your mix will need different approaches to stereo, according to their placement and function, and it's at this stage that potential phase problems with individual sounds should be fixed, as the stereo images of individual sounds are not accessible to a mastering engineer on the whole.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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