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too much emphasis on bassline?
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Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member
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988
Posted : Oct 25, 2004 10:43
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Wiggle: Pffff... Is it so difficult to grasp that a nice and tight bassline is important if you want your music to sound good ? It's the sound that's the core of the track, together with the kick. If your kick and bassline sound 'killer' you're halfway there. And once you know how to get it to sound good it isn't such an issue anymore. Of course making musically interesting music is the key to making far out psy, but it doesn't have to sound like shit for it to be musical. Maybe you get the impression that people here are only into making killer basslines, but i really don't think so  |
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UIU
IsraTrance Full Member
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88
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238
Posted : Oct 25, 2004 11:09
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I get more and more dissapointed by todays psytrance. There are so many good artists that changed from their unique style to making a formulatic full on style. And not only they sound similar, many of them sound identical. Exactly the same sounds, the same chords, same bassline, leads. And what is this obsession with volume? In the good old classic music days volume was used to create emotion. Now whoever makes the loudest track is the best producer. I hear everyone saying that the most important thing is to make a good mix to start with, but the same people that say it use vb-1. Have you heared vb-1 without eq and compression? It sucks. And more and more I see artists using less and less sounds playing together just to make their sound cleaner sacrificing the musical aspect of the songs. I have the same problem some times. I make a sound, that musically is perfect for the song, but messes up the bassline. Many times I choose to make a more clean sound that is not so good musically. Some of my songs I did when I didn't know what eq and mastering is are a lot better musically than the ones I do now, because back then I didn't care about that. Music used to be much more fun back then. Now it starts becoming more and more of a tedious task. I spend 2 days just to make the bass sound right. What is the fun in it? Or I want to have 20 sounds playing at the same time, but chose to have only 5-6 so that it will sound more clear. Maybe with dolby digital surround sound this problem will be a bit smaller. But, will clubs play dolby digital? Don't know. Maybe a new ear drum implant that will allow us to hear a wider range of frequencies? |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
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Posted : Oct 25, 2004 11:34
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Like I said...I'm a bit split in this issue.
I generally agree with wiggle's point.
Most artists I seen in action start with a kick and bass.
I belive that many times limit you when it comes the rest of the content.
Making leads, percussion and loops first make you focus more on both rythm and harmony of the other parts more.
When you finally add kick and bass it will hopefully sound like a lot more content inside the track.
But what Boobytrip says is true as well, when you know how to get a good kick and bass out of your kit, then you don't need to pay so much attention to it anymore.
But I don't agree that you are halfway there. Sure you might be halfway into getting a release on the latest "killer" comp, but maybe thats not all you are striving for in the end.
And that is the problem wiggle is describing it seems. You can actualy hear that thats the attitude of many producers. "ok thats a good kick and bass....let's stick some virus squeeks and swooshes on top and we have a killer".
Of course labels release the stuff, and many ppl will think it's killer.
I am one of those winching a bit sometimes about the current trend, and there is quite a few that seem to be bothered about this attitude.
For me you are maybe 3% there to make a really good track by being able to make a good kick and bass.
Kick and bass never used to be the basis of a track in any genre really. Although it's the most dominant components in a track, it's usually only there to accentuate the rest of the content.
But yes....if you have have good kick and bass you have to mess up quite bad with the rest to not sound "professional".
Having your kick and bass sorted nicely will for me anyway make it a lot easier to let the inspiration flow.
Like I said, just try to not start with them when making a track, and do some real contents first.
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Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
39
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988
Posted : Oct 25, 2004 11:42
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I agree that psytrance at the moment is swamped with Astrix- and GMS-clones. Luckily i don't have to buy their music , and thank god there are still some artists who make really good trance at the moment.
By the way: it's not that bad to use less sounds playing at the same time imho. The attention of the listener can only take in up to 5 (maybe more when tripping) sounds at the same time. Of course it's nice to have some complexity, but when you overdo it, more layers add nothing. At least that's what i found out after acquiring the habit of adding layers, just following my more-is-better instincts and creating muddy mixes. Now i still use loads of sound layers, but i let them play interwoven, and less at the same time. That works for me: http://www.bitstorm.org/happyjoy/ |
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Shroomy
Homegrown Lifeform
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13
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472
Posted : Oct 25, 2004 13:03
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I agree here. There's too much emphasis on having the loudest kicks and the most killer rolling bassline. A good production is a good thing, but it can be overdone as well, which often draws the attention away from the musical aspects of a track.
I have deliberately tried in my latest tracks to keep the kick and bass more in the background to give the listener a chance to focus on melodies, buildups and aspects of the track. There's not even a bassline for a quite large part of the track.
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Dreamthief
Started Topics :
3
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47
Posted : Oct 25, 2004 13:10
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[shrug] More sounds. More bass. Overload. Lose it. That's my philosophy. 20 leads, all playing at the same time? That's beautiful.
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
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20
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356
Posted : Oct 25, 2004 14:41
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I personally am also a bit tired of the HUGE bass boom as of late. Most of the points I would want to make on this discussion have been made, but there is one point I think hasn't really been addressed fully enough yet. I have no doubt that almost all the artists out there honestly want to be become better in all areas of their music creation. Sound production is something that is obviously very important to learn, but I think in the grand scheme of things it is actually one of the easier things to work on and that is part of the problem when it comes to the psy-scene.
Probably 90% of the psy-artists out there have now have had little to no experience creating music before they started making psy, so their depth of knowledge on things like melody, harmony, track flow, etc is pretty shallow right off the bat. Developing skill in these areas simply takes a lot of time. Nothing can beat experience creating here, but the process takes years and years writing an endless number of tracks. Music production and getting the fine details of a certain bass or kick sound down, are by comparision, much easier skills to develop, and on top of that, skills you can readily get advice on from other artists. In that regard, I think the tendency in the scene as of late to focus endlessly is in some ways natural, because for young creators (which is most of the scene really), it gives a sense of accomplishment. Sitting down and saying "I want to sit down and work on developing better counter point harmonies" is much more difficult prospect than saying "I work ot work on beefing up my bass more". You can work on melodies for months on end and not feel like you have made any progress, while spending a couple of weeks reading about and trying out things to beef up your bass will yield definate results and make the artist feel like they have actually made some progress. In that regard, the current bass boom doesn't surprise me at all. Bass and kicks are definately important. However, I would take a simple funky bassline and some good melodic parts over a full on 16th note bass assault any day of the week. Like anything, a 16th note bass assault is effect when used properly, but simply boring when overused.
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ZilDoggo
Started Topics :
4
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663
Posted : Oct 25, 2004 15:21
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Jikkenteki.,.,
wow., nice post.,
greets.,
aka., |
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Woggle
Started Topics :
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88
Posted : Oct 25, 2004 16:27
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One thing i'm suprised about with basslines, not even saying they're overused is this...
people are talking about how they spend so much time on the bassline, the basslines out there today, are ridicuously fuckin simple. they're somethign you play on an sh101 with with no resonance, and some cutoff, eq it up a little, and your bassline is made, and what is looped is a 1 bar bassline. I'm a bit confused why people, if they think the bassline is such a key element to the track, why don't they make it a few bars long. I think this might follow Jikkenteki's philosophy, perhaps it takes too much time?
It wouldn't be so bad if basslines were the emphasis track if they weren't so cookie cutter, check out plastikman-acid house, that's from what 92? it's not psy, but imho it's a timeless track, with a a kick, maybe a snare + hi hat and a bassline, with MAJOR emphasis on the bassline. I think careful attention was paid to the bassline there. But still it sounds great, because of the thought put into it.
I just don't understand, if people put all this effort into basslines, then why do they all sound the same?!:-)
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Woggle
Started Topics :
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88
Posted : Oct 25, 2004 16:37
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oh and yes, i agree with Jikkenteki
, its DEFINATELY it's A LOT Easier to write a stupid looped bassline + kick + virus squeels + an absynth pad+ cheezy movie sample than a true masterpiece of music. I think a lto of new psy artists hide under the guise of minimalism becuase they're not talented enough to mix multiple synth lines. MORE is better, if you understand how frequency relationships work and you can create a proper mix. It just takes talent...
I think right now psy is sailing among a sea of terds, i haven't heard any spectacular tracks in a long time. can anyone name a track that has came out in the last 3 years that has as much timelessness as lets say Hallucinogen's LSD?
Very much like a new digital movie with too many effects, i find the new psy, it's too glossy people trying to show something of a new technology, with no content. It's rather hollow stuff, on the outside it shines, but it's a polished terd.
Check out star wars originals vs the new ones, i think that's what really exemplifies this point. or the matrix, can u wat ch that shit now and really not say "that effect is so old!" and be amazed by it?:-) or is it something disposable due to it's emphasis on fx for the time...(maybe not a good one to use, since it's got an interesting story line, even if it's ripped off a book from teh 1800s...)... |
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Surrender
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
506
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5388
Posted : Oct 25, 2004 16:45
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Quote:
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On 2004-10-25 16:27, Woggle wrote:
what is looped is a 1 bar bassline. I'm a bit confused why people, if they think the bassline is such a key element to the track, why don't they make it a few bars long.
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a shorter bassline (1bar) has much more drive forward dancefloor wise, whats not to understand? if youre making dancefloor type music, this is the way to achieve maximum pull from your 8bars. the change comes at the end of the 4 and/or 8 and it makes your track "fly" forward.
you seem to be against the actual type of music and that im not getting into... its your choice and i respect that. just wanted to shed some light on why the simplicity of the bassline is so.
"On the other hand, you have different fingers."
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Spindrift
Spindrift
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Posted : Oct 25, 2004 16:47
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Well put Jikkenteki.
I think you kind of answered your question yourself Woogle.
The reason that the basslines is less creative nowadays seems to have to do with the sound you can quite easily achive today. It used to be much harder to make good kick and bass, and therefore you had to compensate by making more creative basslines.
It's of course a shame that we don't get more of the better sounding but still creative basses.
I loose the feeling totally if i hear a few 16th basses in a row, and at least in sweden and goa right now it's like 90% of the tracks that use the same bassline.
Hopefully that situation can't last long, ppl just have to get bored with it sometime I guess.
I personally got bored with the style after hearing "Brainman - You are the alien" a few times 95.
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fuzzikitten
Annunaki
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40
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603
Posted : Oct 25, 2004 16:54
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I love the sound of the 16th note, pounding-away-at-your-spine feel, but ONLY as a select effect - like when I want a track to get down and nasty. Writing an entire track of that is... dull.
I like my bassline dancing around with the leads, so much more energy that way.
So what should we call the next iteration that sheds the 16th note bassline?
Goa = complex melodies supported by 'lower quality' basslines.
Psytrance = BADADABADADABADADASQRUUUULECHADADADADA
? = ?
What's the next evolution?
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Woggle
Started Topics :
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88
Posted : Oct 25, 2004 17:55
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ahh, 2 things said well here that have made me think more.
on "It used to be much harder to make good kick and bass, and therefore you had to compensate by making more creative basslines" this is actualyl the opposite. try making a bassline on a juno60, or an sh101, you'll find yourself done in 5 seconds flat. What i propose is that it's easier to make basslines before, which is why people had the ability to make creative basslines. Now i feel people aren't making creative basslines, because it takes so much effort to make a simple one sound good....
And to surrender! i somewhat see that argument, but i also hate that argument!:-) sorry but i HATE djs! THIS IS NOT TECHNO!:D i don't know why psy djs are so thinking they're goood djs, i love when psy djs admit, that most other djs in other genres have much more talent...
I feel psy shouldn't be beat matched, but only mixed the ends together. Perhaps i have an old philosophy?
I feel djs ruin the music, it creates producers who make music to be mixed, and music that is to be beatmatched is NOT creative, DJs need a set form to beat match to, so the tracks become overly predictable. This was the wonderful thing about goa to me. DJs wouldn't beat match 6+ years ago, but rather mix the ambient aspects...
psy just sounds bad beat matched. Perhaps that's tho why there's simpler tracks as well, to make it easier for the dj to mix together.
when i go out and hear music, psychedelic music, I don't want to hear the DJ fuck up my track i'm digging, and they always do. techno yes, i'd love to hear them do that...but psy...pleaes stop!:-)
I think making DJs are the ipitime of making things commercial. A DJ is not an artist, a DJ simply plays back the songs that the artist makes not adds his own little twist. That's my view at least, I hate when a DJ ruins the emotion the artist put into a track it sucks.
sorry but that opened up a can of emotional worms!
but this is my feeling, psy is alike ambient, it's very vibe oriented, not as much rhythtmic, and when u get a dj who knows nothing about harmonies trying to mix 2 different pitches together, it's the ugliest thing in the universe. :-(
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Woggle
Started Topics :
4
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88
Posted : Oct 25, 2004 17:59
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Fuzzi i definately agree with u, i think the psy medium like said just before is for DJs to make it easier on them. Goa is too hard for djs to mix. people are always looking for the easy way out!:o
perhaps it's also old technology vs new, such as people DJing on portable DATs vs compled cdj1000s... and i think that put less strain on the producer
now to get the track played at a party the producer is required to cater to the dj it's not as bad as some music tho...
like my friend he producers drum n bass, has many records out, and is pretty big, and always sends me his stuff to give an opinion on before it gets released, and i always complain about him making the first 32 bars the same exact shit, and he says he's gotta do that to make it easy for djs to mix. That he has to make his entire track specifically for djs to play, because otherwise if it's not easy to mix they won't play it:-/ kinda sad...
DJs are the reason people don't venture into other time signatures as much as well, too hard to mix. If there was no DJ i bet there'd be a whole lot more interesting more experimenting music getting popular:D |
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