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too much compression?
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 27, 2010 16:44
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On 2010-01-25 19:06:43, dj chichke wrote:
today when i worked on a track of mine i noticed when i compared my track with my reference tracks that some of the tracks are so compressed than it fills to me that the dynamic if fucked. i totaly could notice it because i still don't have any compressor on my track (i didn't start the final mix) so the difference is so big. but you know what after i've read here some people say that today everybody are too much compress everything
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i m not sure but i think it s the tools we use and how we use them too,not only compression ,lot of vsti sound like they don t have much dynamic to me ,they sound already kind of too much squased even without compression, they sound like a good source that have been raped with a bad compressor to remove all the organic sound,the depth and 3d feel.my kick bassline sound too much squased even without compression when i a/b it to some old tracks, there is definlety somethign about the tools used and not only compression.
also compression have always been abused in electronic music , but compressing plugins with plugins you end up easily with a bad sound if you over do it ,sound is already very 2d and not much expressive,kinf of lifeless ,too much compression on top of that and you re sure to end up with something that sound flat ,boring,digital.(not talking about analog compressor that could help more in this case ) |
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soulfood
IsraTrance Junior Member
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10
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875
Posted : Jan 27, 2010 17:10
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On 2010-01-27 16:44, PoM wrote:
i m not sure but i think it s the tools we use and how we use them too,lot of vsti sound like they don t have much dynamic to me ,they sound already kind of too much squased even without compression...
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Surely that's more to do with the programming than the vst?
With proper envelope shaping and velocity programming, note length etc there's no reason why any vsti cannot sound as expressive as any hardware instrument.
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 27, 2010 19:50
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you re right about that, i mixed few things they can be expressive i shouldn t have used this word ,but it still feel like programing a squashed sound, it would be more expressive to me if it was more organic with more depth.i ahve the feeling to make some analog synth sounding cheap like plugins you would have to compress the shit out of them with plugins compressors to remove all the life of the sound. again the never ending debate of analog vs digital, it was just for saying that a big part of what we associate with overcompression is the digital sound that sound flat and steril on is own and it s hard to get ride of that |
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Locrian
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
24
Posted : Jan 30, 2010 00:56
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On 2010-01-27 15:26, PoM wrote:
one problem is the mixs that are too flat and can t breath cause of compression but our ears are used to it ,i guess lot of us don t listen music with lot of dynamic so we don t realise how it suck the life of the tracks .
that overcompressed sound can sound better on small speaker but on monitors it s really boring
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Yeah. I didn't really have much knowledge about compression and what a truly dynamic track sounded until I started my education.
One lesson we first listened to a typical dance track. It sounded okay then I thought. Then right after we listened to Avratz by Infected Mushroom wich is a higly dynamic, full bandwidth track. Then we listened to the dance track again and it sounded flat, distorted, muddy and generally not punchy at all.
It should be noted that we listened trough a monitor system designed by Ingvar Öhman(INO Audio is the brand I think) who probably makes the best loudspeakers in the world(he isn't really working on a large scale though so his loudspeakers aren't really that well known).
It should also be noted that we listened to the tracks on equal perceived level. Where both sounds equally loud. This to prevent us from being tricked by the loudness.
On the thesis that compressed audio can sound better on small speakers I have to disagree. The problem with small speakers is primarily that they generally can't play as loud and as low. Compression will probably bring up the bass and average amplitude but because the loudspeakers really can't handle the bass and volume it will distort it. So you might gain volume but will also gain distortion which I find not to be a good tradeoff.
 http://soundcloud.com/locrian/tracks |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2010 23:47
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maybe it depends the speakers , on shity car speakers , laptop ,radio... i have find some compressed tracks to not sound that bad and i don t listen loud ,my impression is that the more the woofers are big the more dyamic music can shine but i might be wrong ,can hear it with my 6.5 and 8 inches woofers on my monitors , on the 8inches dynamic stuff will sound more intresting ,it have more "depth",maybe it have something to do with the the amps too i don t know |
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Locrian
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
24
Posted : Feb 5, 2010 03:39
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On 2010-02-02 23:47, PoM wrote:
maybe it depends the speakers , on shity car speakers , laptop ,radio... i have find some compressed tracks to not sound that bad and i don t listen loud ,my impression is that the more the woofers are big the more dyamic music can shine but i might be wrong ,can hear it with my 6.5 and 8 inches woofers on my monitors , on the 8inches dynamic stuff will sound more intresting ,it have more "depth",maybe it have something to do with the the amps too i don t know
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Well the difference between a dynamic and a heavily compressed track will be less noticeable on bad speakers. And on radio everything gets brickwall compressed anyway(heard a story about some swedish radio staion that actually used 17 compressors in series).
Have you A/B tested this on your laptop(for an example)? Take a dynamic, full bandwidth, low-distortion track(Like Avratz by Infected Mushroom) and a higly compressed, low-bandwidth, higly processed and higly distorted dance track of some sort(more or less all dance music). Load the up in your DAW and adjust the levels so that they sound equally loud. The switch between them while playing quickly and try to listen for differences. The listen to each song in its entirety and compare. (You could also compress Avratz, or whatever song you chosed and A/B between them. This will probably get an even better result as you are comparing the same track.)
On the woofers. Well dynamic music needs better speakers that can go louder than undynamic music. It also needs(and can without risking hearing and inflicting pain) to be played louder. Small woofers means less bass and bass is the thing that restricts the most how loud you can play something.
And of course the amps make a difference. As does the cables, the room, the media player and everything else thats between the CD/file and your ears. But generally the faults in the track are larger than the faults in the hardware.
http://soundcloud.com/locrian/tracks |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Feb 5, 2010 15:02
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On 2010-02-05 03:39, Locrian wrote:
On the woofers. Well dynamic music needs better speakers that can go louder than undynamic music. It also needs(and can without risking hearing and inflicting pain) to be played louder. Small woofers means less bass and bass is the thing that restricts the most how loud you can play something.
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This is something that often is missed out on in the debate about the "loudness war".
If everyone used ideal equipment, having much dynamics leads to a more interesting sound. But when mastering you usually want to try to make it sound good on as many systems as possible.
Sometimes a track can sound better without hardly any limiting applied when you listening on a nice pair of monitors, but sound better with a limiter when played back on a pair of computer speakers which cannot provide sufficient power or on a PA which is being pushed hard enough to not provide extra headroom.
How often do you play at a party and find that you have a lot of gain left top play with to allow for more dynamic material without it either resulting in a lower perceived volume or the limiter on the PA kicking in?
So while I can agree that there is a lot of music being pushed too hard I do think one have to be very careful to not make a master that only works well on systems with a lot of spare power.
Of course it's better to control dynamics in the mix, and a good mix should not need heavy compression or limiting when mastering. Subtle compression on the master can sometimes be nice to make things glue together a bit. And in some styles it's an essential part of the sound to apply heavy pumping compression on the master. But for typical psytrance with a lot of layers of sounds, compressing the mix tends to make it more muddy rather than "glued".
About compression on individual tracks it's something I think many tend to overdo. For example a lot of people automatically assume that you need to compress the bass. With live bass that tends to be true, because it's hard to control the dynamics precisely. But with synthesized bass you can have exact control over the envelope and level of each note, so if you need compression it's because your programming and/or instrument needs to be corrected. If you use an instrument that cannot give you an envelope just like the one you want, first thing to do would be try to find one that can. If that fails, compression can help you correct the envelope a bit, but of course it's better to use a source that doesn't need correction to start with.
And of course it's ok to be lazy sometimes, and if using a compressor saves you a lot of time, a small difference in quality might not justify the extra effort. For example if adding a slowly modulating phaser cases too large volume fluctuations I probably wont automate levels on the track to compensate even if I might get a little bit better result doing that than sticking a compressor on the track.
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