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to all audiophiles in here
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-aeon-
Aeon
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
546
Posted : Jan 23, 2009 15:59
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sounds not too weird for me..
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i think this is how the more extreme audiophile companies make their money.
there is nothing wrong with some of the electrical engineering and design principles applied to (say) high-end headphone amplifiers...
but i think a lot of audiophile manufacturers prey on people who know a little bit, but not a lot - i.e., most people! please note i am not attacking anyone here, i am one of those people too  if it sounds vaguely plausible, people will believe. particularly those who know a little bit, but not a lot!
i don't claim to be an electrical engineer but, once you cross a basic quality threshold (i.e. the product in question is manufactured to acceptable standards) i find it very hard to believe that this cable is necessarily going to affect the flow of electrons in such a way as to improve the sound. from my understanding of electronic principles i simply do not understand why or how it should. if the resistance is low enough, and the cable is not so huge that reactance (cable inductance / capacitance) affects the audio range... well, i just don't see how.
people will try to sell cables which are 'directional' (hint: audio is AC, or alternating current...). they will try to sell cables which are 'cryogenic' or have been 'Tesla-ised. try to think about the practical implications of these methods of cable design.
let's take 'Quantum Tunnelling', for instance. if this process really resulted in
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| The before and after is startling with a lower noise floor and improvements in inner detail, air, low frequency extension and overall transparency and signal speed |
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don't you think everyone would do it? wouldn't every mastering EQ, every high-end compressor, every Neve console and Nord synth be 'Quantum Tunnelled'? wouldn't your favourite guitarists only play through 'Q-Tun' cables into 'QT Compatible' amps?
but of course not everyone does. in fact only Tesla cable makers do.
think about the journey those little electrons have made - from your favourite guitarists' pickups, through a cable into a pedal; then through a bypass box; an insert compressor, preamp or DI; a channel strip; a console bus; an outboard processor; back into the console; through an A/D converter; through 5 or 6 mastering processes with more cables and a final D/A conversion. that's just for those electrons to go from one guitar to one finished CD. now imagine all the other non-Quantum Tunnelled connections, cables, and signal paths for every instrument, sub-group, mix bus and outboard processor used on every album.
now ask yourself - why don't all studios insist on freezing all their wires and gear? why don't all studios subject all their interconnects to 2million volts? and why do all our favourite records sound so good, if they haven't been properly Tunelled? |
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acidkills
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
431
Posted : Jan 23, 2009 16:08
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klippel
Stereofeld
Started Topics :
91
Posts :
1153
Posted : Jan 23, 2009 17:03
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don't you think everyone would do it? wouldn't every mastering EQ, every high-end compressor, every Neve console and Nord synth be 'Quantum Tunnelled'? wouldn't your favourite guitarists only play through 'Q-Tun' cables into 'QT Compatible' amps?
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well that is not really an argument, if we all would change right away what we KNOW we could do better the world would be a different place for sure.. we know we waste our planet and do not change it.. and thats some more important example than freaking fried cables ?
so people do not always follow better ways even though what they do is known to be worse!
to sum things up for me:
- those high end brands do a splendid marketing job for sure. they tell half educated tech nerds what they want to hear and sell their stuff like all the other brands out there as well.. bullshitting people par excellence
- a lot of the stuff out there SOUNDS and IS indeed ridiculous.
- the synergistic research website is very strange indeed, they do not by any chance explain ANYTHING what and how their techniques should make the sound better, at least from a scientific point of you, BUT:
- i do not understand shit about electronics and why a specific cable or whatever sounds better.
- do you know why a neve mixer sounds so damn good btw? or do you just know it because you trust your ears or have heard it?
- i find it very funny that people accept so many things as given and start to argue when it comes to so called high end.. why does zebra sound better than albino? why does a nordlead cut through a mix better than a virus? all these things are commonly known, and judged by EARs.. and you guys accept it.. what does it even mean to "cut throug a mix better?" can you quantify it at all?
- why do software eqs sound sooooo different if they do the same job? or other fx or synths or speakers or cables--- do you KNOW?
I DO NOT KNOW but believe my ears!
- my ears judge these SR cables to be the shizzle, believe it or not.. and they do have a significant effect beyond any doubt, for not only me involved in the testing..
and actually i do not give a flying fuck WHY they sound better.. and if they say they brought it to the moon and back to make them sound as they do.. i do not care..
in the end the effect is what counts for me and not any marketing shit that promotes it!
- so i am happy with them, and how can YOU judge the effect without even trying them WITH ME ON MY STEREO (you are invited btw )?
i do understand that a lot of people would argue about so expensive gear in such a field.. but i simply do not understand why somebody would tell me something about a thing i TRIED.. and nobody else here i guess..
and of course, a new cable is not a new speaker.. i did never say the effect is that big. nevertheless it is sufficiently big for me to purchase that product.
peace out and be nice to each other.. |
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acidkills
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
431
Posted : Jan 23, 2009 17:17
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Kane
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
1772
Posted : Jan 23, 2009 17:27
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The real question is: Do you want to think that they sound better because you spent so much money on them?
Your ears are not the only factor here. Your objectivity is gone when you have that kind of attachment to something.
I'll never make any investment like this unless the distributor has a reliable "no questions asked" return policy for up to (at least) 7 days, so that you can think of the experience as an evaluation and judge them without apprehension.
 You believe in the users?
Yeah, sure. If I don't have a user, then who wrote me? |
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klippel
Stereofeld
Started Topics :
91
Posts :
1153
Posted : Jan 23, 2009 17:32
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On 2009-01-23 17:27, Kane wrote:
The real question is: Do you want to think that they sound better because you spent so much money on them?
Your ears are not the only factor here. Your objectivity is gone when you have that kind of attachment to something.
I'll never make any investment like this unless the distributor has a reliable "no questions asked" return policy for up to (at least) 7 days, so that you can think of the experience as an evaluation and judge them without apprehension.
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as stated before. a friend of mine has a hifi shop. i do test stuff long periods at home, can give it back any time...
i tested other expensive (and inexpensive) cables before with no satisfaction..
believe me, i DO NOT WANT to spend so much on a cable. but the benefit was big, hence i did it.. |
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-aeon-
Aeon
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
546
Posted : Jan 23, 2009 17:53
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On 2009-01-23 17:03, klippel wrote:
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don't you think everyone would do it? wouldn't every mastering EQ, every high-end compressor, every Neve console and Nord synth be 'Quantum Tunnelled'? wouldn't your favourite guitarists only play through 'Q-Tun' cables into 'QT Compatible' amps?
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well that is not really an argument, if we all would change right away what we KNOW we could do better the world would be a different place for sure.. we know we waste our planet and do not change it.. and thats some more important example than freaking fried cables ?
so people do not always follow better ways even though what they do is known to be worse! |
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you're right, people don't always do the right thing when it's difficult for them (taking out the recycling, eating less junk-food, buying fair trade coffee). doing the right thing is often hard.
but in audio... we all spend days, months, years pursuing better audio quality. we measure frequency responses, we study phase differences, we root out distortion and identify individual samples at 96,000 per second. we LOVE finding out more about audio, we devote our lives to it... we work, eat, sleep and dream it. for so many people in the industry to consciously ignore something like 'Quantum Tunnelling' suggests to me that it's not important. and it's not about money either... people spend millions on their studios
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| - those high end brands do a splendid marketing job for sure. they tell half educated tech nerds what they want to hear and sell their stuff like all the other brands out there as well.. bullshitting people par excellence
- a lot of the stuff out there SOUNDS and IS indeed ridiculous.
- the synergistic research website is very strange indeed, they do not by any chance explain ANYTHING what and how their techniques should make the sound better, at least from a scientific point of you, BUT: |
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for sure, i agree with you here
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| - i do not understand shit about electronics and why a specific cable or whatever sounds better.
...
- do you know why a neve mixer sounds so damn good btw? or do you just know it because you trust your ears or have heard it? |
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i haven't actually used a Neve - in fact i have used very few mixing consoles!
one thing i can tell you though is that every single electronic device in every single studio in the world will contain similar components - resistors, capacitors, tubes, transformers, transistors, diodes, jumpers, LDRs, LEDs. and none of these components have been 'Quantum Tunnelled'.
there are many reasons why a Soundcraft desk sounds nicer than a Behringer; it uses better quality parts. it is better designed and better built, to closer tolerances. there was less compromise on price or build time. the designers have more experience isolating audio paths from power paths. there are measurable principles which we can use to determine that yes, the Soundcraft has a lower noise floor; or has a better gain structure; or a more carefully designed EQ.
if you give a Michelin-starred chef and a McDonalds worker the same ingredients, they will produce very different meals. if you give the Michelin chef the finest, freshest organic free-range products then the difference will be even greater. and if you give the McDonalds chef 20 minutes but let the Michelin chef take all day the difference will be greater still. we can reasonably expect this. there is evidence to support it.
but if we give the Michelin chef 'lucky underpants', and that makes a difference to the food, then i'm afraid we cannot accept it at face value.
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| - i find it very funny that people accept so many things as given and start to argue when it comes to so called high end.. why does zebra sound better than albino? why does a nordlead cut through a mix better than a virus? all these things are commonly known, and judged by EARs.. and you guys accept it.. what does it even mean to "cut throug a mix better?" can you quantify it at all? |
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you raise a good point about quantifying elusive terms. we do have a sort-of common language when dealing with nebulous and elusive audio concepts ('full', 'warm', 'organic', 'thin', 'nasal', 'techy', 'honk').
but there are some things we can explain. for example - Nord Lead has no effects and a very distinctive highpass filter model. Virus has lots of effects and a more noticeable lowpass model. most fx (principally delays, reverbs, chorus etc.) act to distance a sound either spatially or sonically (widening the stereo image, giving depth, pushing a sound to the back of a mix, damping some high-frequency content). so - a synth with no FX and a very powerful and recognisable highpass filter will naturally 'cut through' a mix more.
why does zebra sound better than albino? i don't know, perhaps rob papen might not agree with you 
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| - why do software eqs sound sooooo different if they do the same job? or other fx or synths or speakers or cables--- do you KNOW? |
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like i said, i'm not an electrical engineer. i'm not a DSP coder either.
but am i aware of the principles which explain why an Apogee interface sounds better than a Soundblaster interface? why an SSL EQ sounds better than a free VSTi from 1999?
yes!
it is the same reason a ferrari is better to drive than a tractor. less compromise in design and implementation. better quality components.
and i believe the same is true with cables. if i wired my monitors up with unbalanced, uninsulated telephone wire from the 1940s, and then replaced it with a well-designed, balanced cable with Neutrik connectors - i would expect to hear a difference. but that difference is predictable, quantifiable, and explicable.
if the wire is made from a conductive material; if it is the proper gauge; if it is appropriately shielded; if it is not unnecessarily long; then it will sound better.
if, however, someone tells me that they have frozen it, buried it under the sea for 12 years then dug it up and performed a voodoo ritual then, provided it is in the same physical condition, i would expect it to sound exactly the same. i do not understand how 'sub-atomic' changes taking place due to Quantum Tunnelling would make a difference - as far as i am aware this has no scientific basis.
do you realise how important room acoustics is? ethan winer did a great analysis which showed how pronounced comb filtering was. he demonstrated that moving your head position by one inch had a noticeable, measurable effect on frequency response...
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| I DO NOT KNOW but believe my ears!
- my ears judge these SR cables to be the shizzle, believe it or not.. and they do have a significant effect beyond any doubt, for not only me involved in the testing..
and actually i do not give a flying fuck WHY they sound better.. and if they say they brought it to the moon and back to make them sound as they do.. i do not care..
in the end the effect is what counts for me and not any marketing shit that promotes it!
- so i am happy with them, and how can YOU judge the effect without even trying them WITH ME ON MY STEREO (you are invited btw )? |
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that's good!
look man, we are not so different... i just bought a pair of $300 headphones, after all i probably could have used a pair that were half the price and been very happy. and yes i think these phones are amazing... but then i paid hundreds for them. of course i think they're amazing, it's psychologically coherent.
i would like to listen to these cables sometime. i would try and be objective, honestly! it would be very difficult though because there are only a few parameters which matter to the transmission of audio, and pretty much every cable adheres to those criteria.
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Pavel
Troll
Started Topics :
313
Posts :
8649
Posted : Jan 24, 2009 23:57
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You beat me to it!
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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~d2~
Inactive User
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
751
Posted : Feb 1, 2009 14:43
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On 2009-01-20 15:58, klippel wrote:
maybe i should go and check my doctor then.. i seem to have a nice hallucination all the way hehe
check out:
http://www.digido.com/about-us.html
bob katz, also often stated here as the mastering guru, seems to enjoy his custom made magic cables. guess these weren´t cheap either.
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You should read his book. I am quite confident that he would not touch the cables you got. |
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yggster
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
87
Posted : Feb 10, 2009 20:08
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Good cables does make a big difference.
There is a reason that some cables cost 10 bucks and others more then 10 times the amount.
The pro studios certainly invest in quality.
get-a-fix: $7k monitors with $50-100 cables?
That's a weird investment to my ears!
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Get-a-fix
Getafix
Started Topics :
147
Posts :
1441
Posted : Feb 10, 2009 20:30
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Maybe to you but i'd rather invest my money in things that really matter such as acoustic treatment, DAC's, monitor controllers etc etc rather than 'high-end' cables.
I bought mogami cables & left it at that. The only justification i can think of for buying more expensive cables would be build quality. Cheaper cables might not last as long.
http://www.soundcloud.com/getafixmusic |
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Get-a-fix
Getafix
Started Topics :
147
Posts :
1441
Posted : Feb 10, 2009 20:49
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yggster
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
87
Posted : Feb 11, 2009 15:45
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Sure, you don't buy expensive cables before other more important things as you mentioned.
Mogami would be good enough for me. But your $100 cable is prolly double the amount here, putting it in the higher quality section.
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