Fakso
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 15, 2013 15:25
I tried both with eqing and I stick to what I said, it maybe ok for other stuff, but if you want something similar to the progressive stuff of these days, one of these 2 elements does not provide enough power if tuned high
I have a nearly finished track and listend to it on headphones ....to much rumble in the lowend so I cut out all the lowend of my bass starting some freqs. below the bass root freq. ...it got better and the bass is now quiet clear, but still there was much subenergy...I want to do it today to see if it helps to clean the mess up but sampling the kick too, so that even the kick does not interfere with the bass, not longer than 1/16, afaik mine is longer in the track am working at
frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 15, 2013 22:53
It really depends on what you're doing of course. The numbers I talked about (100Hz & 50Hz) were just examples: they're one octave apart and thus can sound in tune, but more separated. But those numbers are just some random reference. What's important is the harmonic relationship between the two. Doesn't mean one should tune stuff by numbers, it's the ears that count.
But even if one goes this way, you can still add more subs to any of the two if you feel like it needs it. It's important that the fundamentals are still perceived as such, though, otherwise, there goes the rolling together nicely feeling...
"so for rolling feel", either what you say or carefully adjusting the length and placement and have it in tune, maybe some side chain (again, it really depends...).
When I said ~80-100Hz, the idea you get is it's pitched way up. You see, that really depends on the kick. It can sound like a knock on a door or something like that, if you add the sub to it and adjust the length of it as well - this is where the gold is with layers - you can get a very nice sounding kick that goes well with deep sounding basses.
what about sine wave basses? you guys into that?
Fungophago
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Posted : May 16, 2013 00:33
of course its a matter of taste.
i analysed this one:
the kick is somewhere at 60-70hz if i remember correctly and bass at 40 or whatever.
I'd also admit that 100hz is maybe to high.
the upper limit is somewhere at 85-90hz for me.
it's just a test track and im still a beginner so dont expect it to sound too good.
but what i meant is that the relation between the notes also gives a lot of fatness. or at least this uplifting feeling as in the darma track.
havent done anything with sine basses ,yet. should try it thx for the idea
cheers
Fakso
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 16, 2013 14:57
well it's hard to deal with issues in the lowend ffs, on headphones the lowend eats up alot of my mids/highs but maybe layering will provide the pro sound?
Ricciardo
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 16, 2013 17:27
Quote:
1. - Cut Bass below 30hz, 40 hz or 50hz? Do not you cut anything in the bass?
2. - Does using multiband compression? Use Quadrafuzz?
3. - Use compressor sidechain in Cubase? Or do it manually?
4. - Or maybe it's my Kick?
Answers by number:
1. it depends on type of wav form your using in the bass and the note... sometimes its not necessary to cut anything, and having bottom is allways good!
2. instead of multiband compressor or fuzz, try to setup a multichannel exit for bass & kick, its better to compress Kick & bass un the same channel... the end result will be a much better "glued" sound
3. side chain is good for thouse Dubstep style mixes, where the kicks are never playing at a fixed tempor or grid fixed positions, then everytime the kick plays the basschannel mix is adapted to it... its only a tecnique that was created to make you have less work, but in terms of psytrance doesnt have much use...if you do an effective midi programing and tweak the mix, its irrelevant to use it on the bass, sidechain may be more usefull in terms of percussive elements, or synth tricks...
4. the kick plays a very important rule in psytrance, most people tend to look to bassline aspects, but kick is very, very crucial in making the bass pump, but even more than the kick, is how do you ear the sound...
most people simply dont do pro-basslines, becasue they cant possibly make them in their rooms, either they have very bad accoustics, or they monitors simply dont tell them the truth...
thats mostly why amateurs mix and production isnt good, its due to the fact they arent earing the sound right... some think they do, but they dont, and when they ear their tracks in serious studios or big systems, then its completly diferent thing
by the way: i am using Zebra quite a lot to make basslines, its one of the very few plugins that let you draw the wave form...
and sometimes many people waste way too much time with EQ and compression, and they simply miss the fact, that its all about the wav form. the source...
a small touch in the wav form can make miracles...
heres an example, you can tweak the basic "Saw" wav form in Zebra, and i basicly can change how a bassline sound by moving certain points, trust me... this is what makes all the diference...
but... in order to use this, you need to ear things right, its useless to make this kind of tweaking, if your room sound sucks, or if your monitors cant possibly notice the slight diference of sound when you do this...
any way, good luck, i still think people waste too much time thinking in minimal aspects of the music making such bassline and kick, they are not important if your music is good, if the content is good then its a matter of making a good mix, its useless to have good bassline and pimp it with shit content
Evolving Space
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Posted : May 16, 2013 20:13
Quote:
frisbeehead
If it is true what you say, you're right to delete frequencies 250 hz to 500 hz or more, and also where to place the bass note, but certainly that's not very difficult, and it was difficult for me and brought me giving turns in the head was to achieve a professional sound.
Quote:
Fakso
I never said I wanted to do progressive at first, but I started another track that if progressive, To that not I would go crazy with the previous track and not getting enviciarme, on this track that I started from scratch, kick me and I completely did put in 60 hz and bass at 50 hz. It only add some eq to kick, bass nothing , and I think the best way is to keep it simple but knowing where they can engage each frequency.
Hey good work and thanks for your time to analyze this great track, and certainly if you did a good job with your track, but if you listen with good monitors lacks the kick more punch, so that both the kick and bass lacks pumping, this does not mean that you did not miss either. and is a very good thing and kick up the bass below.
Quote:
Ricciardo
Truth brother had already done something similar to group the bass and the kick and compress from the channel group and if certainly gives more punch, But that will profecional? that's what I find fatiguing.
Zebra is great for bass and kick, and have great reason not to have a flagpole talves Profecional monitor system and a room suitable acousticamente, can not leave a great production.
And about the content is very true, the better the content and structure of a track.
But you can not say that is lost by much people Bassline, because the bassline in Psytrance is what to do to move the body since low frequencies are what the body perceives as powerful vibrations and goes straight to the feet of a dancer, to one that this is not physically correct, your ace feeling when you're in front of a large Rave monitors.
Thanks for your time brothers and hear my second track for your coments.
xoC
Cubic Spline
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Posted : May 17, 2013 14:45
A lot of times, a really killer bassline just comes straight out of the synth, and needs no EQ, no compression.
Keep in mind that at least 50% of the way the bassline sounds is due to the kick. So you really need to tweak the two so they work together. As great your bassline could be, if your kick is not appropriate, it will sound like shit.
Also, a killer kick/bass would be just ok in a wrong context. Good sounds above, and especially tight and powerfull percussions will increase the perceived "killerness" of the KB.
Overprocessing do wrong things to basslines, so instead of trying to correct with EQ, just try harder on the sound design side.
Psytrance bassline are "simple" on the sound design part (ie tweaking the filter enveloppe, env mod and putting osc retrigger), so they do don't voodoo frequency wise : if you make lot of smalls cuts to kill this or that resonnance, you're probably trying to EQ your room, not your bassline What you need is tweak right this small amount of critical parameters (env mod, filter decay, cutoff) to make the bassline work with the kick. Don't forget also the composition side : good notes length, velocity, ...
Use EQ for tonal changes, ie smooths shelfs, or broad boost/cut : it will sound natural.
frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 17, 2013 20:04
Quote:
On 2013-05-17 14:45, xoC wrote:
A lot of times, a really killer bassline just comes straight out of the synth, and needs no EQ, no compression.
Overprocessing do wrong things to basslines, so instead of trying to correct with EQ, just try harder on the sound design side.
^^this!
I think processing on the Bass should be to enhance what's already there when applying saturation, for example, to bring out some harmonics. Not to correct a bad sound.
Sounding like a "pro" which is the topic here comes with time. But this minor adjustments in envelopes and positioning of the notes - the simple stuff - is really where the gold is. The general idea behind this is to get things sounding good together both in terms of pitch and timbre and how this all relates with the timing as well. Even though the parameters are very straight forward, minor adjustments make a big difference. So this is where delicate tweaking is important, rather then post processing.
Someone here said using only one stage of saturation is old fashioned ("so 2003"), but things haven't changed all that much when it comes to making Kick and Bass combo and I still think it's best to keep it simple and preserve the good aspects of the source, rather then completely change it through processing. This critical listening is easier to do if you A/B the changes making sure the volume levels are exactly the same. Louder always sound better and this alone can trick us into thinking that "tons of saturation, perhaps even over compression sounds better when in most cases it doesn't.
One aspect that I don't see mentioned a lot and I feel it's very important is: people used to be real happy about Quadrafuzz for bass and I don't think it was just the saturation, but being able to make adjustments to the volume shape of the sound, using the four bands available. If you think about it, you may want to use some broad volume adjustments, since, for example, the mud in a bass sound is usually somewhere from 200Hz-350Hz, and you may want to enhance from 40Hz to 80Hz or something like this.
What I'm saying here is you're changing the gain of a frequency band without affecting the overall harmonic balance of the sound. Such work is to be done in context with the Kick (in this case) but can help a lot when placing the two sounds together.
I find myself many times thinking like this: there's some mid frequency on the Bass that I like and I try to make the highs of my Kick, sound harmonious with that - or at least find some combination that works. I tend to think of this separated from the tunning I get for the lower frequencies. In other words, per bands.
I like to use some bus compressor on the group (something like 3dB gain reduction at most), sometimes even a slight boost with an EQ - the analogue inspired kind (I do mean slight, +2dBFS tops). I think of this as a good way to enhance some of the qualities present in the combo - as one.
Someone said here that you don't really need side chain. You don't always need it, but sometimes it's just what you want. I don't think of it as a way to avoid a problem or correct one, but more like a desired effect (not all the times, but some).
cheers
Djones
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : May 18, 2013 19:25
Quote:
On 2013-05-17 14:45, xoC wrote:
if you make lot of smalls cuts to kill this or that resonnance, you're probably trying to EQ your room, not your bassline
Just figured that's exactly what I've been doing for years I was EQ-ing out all ugly resonances but when I checked on headphones, the result was nothing but ugly resonances all over the place
Fakso
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 18, 2013 20:24
Quote:
On 2013-05-18 19:25, Djones wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-17 14:45, xoC wrote:
if you make lot of smalls cuts to kill this or that resonnance, you're probably trying to EQ your room, not your bassline
Just figured that's exactly what I've been doing for years I was EQ-ing out all ugly resonances but when I checked on headphones, the result was nothing but ugly resonances all over the place
woho same here, never thought that it's affecting this so much but I just checked durs and interactive noise - black hole and compared my kick bass combo on same levels...spectrum analyzer shows fine and loud harmonics all over the lower midrange whereas mine has big lacks there as I eq'd them all out because there where ringing...ok now I need some money fast to treat my room properly, I finally want well translated basslines
https://soundcloud.com/noordzee-laborant
aXis
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 18, 2013 23:14
layer ur bass.
reference ur track to other releases
get a blowjob. (the drink )
reference ur track again.
get a blowjob.(the real deal.)
