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Thoughts on not mixing while producing.
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Icaro
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 12, 2012 23:05
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I for one have been dealing with this issue for a while. I found that because I was 'mixing as I go' I tended to get stuck in the middle of the song, and not move forward. Then, I often get sick of the song I'm working on, as if the song was the problem. After mixing some non-trance projects, where the songs have been written, recorded, etc., and realizing how much easier the mixing comes at that stage, I've tried to force myself to write/create the entire body of the song first, and then mix.
I switched back to Cubase not too long ago, and between getting use to working in Cubase again (+ learning a lot of new things about it), and mixing for other people, I haven't finished anything original yet...... but I have one song close to finished, and the process of writing the track went much smoother than it went with other songs.
I guess everyone will have their own process, and nothing is wrong by any means; but for me, it makes much more sense now, to write/create the entire body of the song, and then mix after. I think because many people writing electronic music approach things with a more engineering attitude, it's easy for us to get trapped in the mixing process, before the song is even ready for mixing. |
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Ricciardo
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2012 01:20
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i personaly think its kind of silly think that production and mixing are not part of the same process, a certain sound can actualy only makes sense if he is mixed in a certain way, with certain effects and can only make sense
there are people who mix tracks professionaly and they are hired to mix, mix is their work and usualy that kind of people mix tracks for bands and stuff like that
on electronic music and producers the thing is completly diferent, usualy the producers do all the stuff, and because of that, there is not separation of process, as its the same person doing it, the mixing is usualy made while producing, its obvious that there allways tweaks, and a pré-mastering work, but dont let fool your selfs, mixing is part of a production process and you need to have solid idea about how it will realy sound some elements in order to place them on a music,
besides that, music is art, and as art is done by inspiration and should be mixed as part of the same inspiration, not as a diferent step or process...
*eletronic music is made by loops, everything usualy is a loop, so i mix all the elements while creating them, earing them togheter (all togheter...) if they are well composed and mixed, they will sound good togheter and will easly fit on a mix
this actualy is the best method, because you also fix somethings after, but this way you will release creative space to make a track and not creating a track from nothing and mixing it without know what will be ahead... this is the trick, compose, create elements and make a final structure of the music with the mix allready more less in place... and then final tweaks and mastering...
but everything same process (except mastering...) |
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makus
Overdream
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82
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3087
Posted : Jan 13, 2012 01:25
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On 2012-01-13 01:20, Ricciardo wrote:
i personaly think its kind of silly think that production and mixing are not part of the same process, a certain sound can actualy only makes sense if he is mixed in a certain way, with certain effects and can only make sense
there are people who mix tracks professionaly and they are hired to mix, mix is their work and usualy that kind of people mix tracks for bands and stuff like that
on electronic music and producers the thing is completly diferent, usualy the producers do all the stuff, and because of that, there is not separation of process, as its the same person doing it, the mixing is usualy made while producing, its obvious that there allways tweaks, and a pré-mastering work, but dont let fool your selfs, mixing is part of a production process and you need to have solid idea about how it will realy sound some elements in order to place them on a music,
besides that, music is art, and as art is done by inspiration and should be mixed as part of the same inspiration, not as a diferent step or process...
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Ricciardo, well, this is how I was thinking about it since I started producing in 1998. Today I think there are options 
That's why I created the tompic. Everyone understands that the final mix of the track is going to be mixed But how exactly yo gonna achieve that is something that is interesting to me.
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*eletronic music is made by loops, everything usualy is a loop, so i mix all the elements while creating them, earing them togheter (all togheter...) if they are well composed and mixed, they will sound good togheter and will easly fit on a mix
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what if i dont use loops? Also what exactly do u mean by "if elements are well mixed they will fit the mix easily"? 
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| this actualy is the best method, because you also fix somethings after, but this way you will release creative space to make a track and not creating a track from nothing and mixing it without know what will be ahead... this is the trick, compose, create elements and make a final structure of the music with the mix allready more less in place... and then final tweaks and mastering...
but everything same process (except mastering...)
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I think it depends on how u understand what mixing is - an additional stage to make the track sound better or the stage of finalizing the track, enhancing the idea of it.
www.overdreamstudio.com |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2012 02:59
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no processing is better than bad processing ,that what make lot of production sound amateurish, some tunes would probably sound better just the synth and fx and no processing at all , or maybe just a hp on all track if needed, it make think to this cause i lisented some dark psy that was sounding a lot too much processed equed, it was not sounding natural at all.. wihtout any processing it would sound way better imo!so avoiding too much mixing could be a good thing in some case for more natural sounding mix and more effort on tweaking source.
a good exercice is to try to get decent mix with a 3 band eq on each track, or just a ssl chanel for example ,it make you work on your source more and with 3 band of eq, it s way harder than with 10 bands to fuck the sound , on bad produced music they fuck more the sound than enhance it with processing mostly cause of room acoustic and lack of experience.
about the workflow for me with the years the best i have find ,i m not a good example as i dont make much music since few years just a few collab but we always worked the same way.. bassline + beat once it sound good (that what set the bar of the production quality the tune will have imo) we start the tune , then there is not much problem to mix sound..cleaver arrangement,tweaking the synths a bit of processing... what is funny is that making the beat and bassline from scratch and tweaking it good take almost as much time as writing the full tune |
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Fometrius
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2012 05:36
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It sounds like a good idea if one is capable of doing so. Myself i usually do most changes in the mix when i feel the arrangement is finished or almost so, lately i been tweaking a bit more , putting on more compressors and eq`ing in the arrangement stage. Being to stuck on fine tuning can make me loose some workflow though. I think its all about what skill level you have and which working method that suits you the best.
I guess one learns more what kind of eq ,panning ,compressors etc that is suitable for getting the sounds that you want to achieve when getting more experience , which makes it easier to make it good from scratch.
I like the the phrase "All roads lead to Rome" .
As long as the finished result is satisfieng its all good, despite which kind of procedure one did to get there.
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Equilizyme
IsraTrance Junior Member
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593
Posted : Jan 13, 2012 07:55
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@PoM - nice new avatar mate!
I am looking at your comment about beginners (me) messing up the sound by too intense of EQing and processing. I just spent time today using 8band EQs all all the sounds in my track. Each pole, with the exception of the high and low cuts is a 3dB OR LESS cut or boost (cuts narrow and boosts wide). As far as I can tell (listening in headphones is all I have) these adjustments have all improved the clarity of the mix. However, looking at your post I am now second guessing myself.
In your (or anyone else's) experience will these small (or at least what I consider to be small) adjustments fuck the sounds? I dont have anything to post as an example, but just let me know what you would guess from experience.
With respect to the topic - I guess what I have been finding is that I like to place things in the stereo field while I am composing. This way I get a general idea for where each sound will be placed in the field and in the freq spectrum. I save all the EQing and compression and FX fine tuning until most of the song is done. Although I find it helpful to EQ before bouncing each sound to audio, adding FX, splicing, and playing that back along with the original sound. That saves time on the EQing everything step cuz the bounced stuff is already done.
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Nomad Moon
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2012 13:15
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On 2012-01-12 14:56, disco hooligans wrote:
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On 2012-01-12 14:40, Nomad Moon wrote:
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thats my problem, i think i can't mix ...
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Try this:
Play some music that you know sounds well from your favourite producers. Listen to that music in your mixing environment for 20-30 minutes to get used to the sound. Pay attention at the levels.
Open you arrangement.
Bring all the faders down to -infinity/60dB.
Bring the kick in at around -10dB.
Using the kick as reference bring in the rest of the tracks, start from the drums and move on to the bassline, main synths lines, background effects/atmospheres...etc.
Go back to the tunes from your favourite producers and make sure you are in the same ball park, but when you choose a reference tune from your favourite producers, try to find one that is in the same vibe of the track you are mixing.
Peace out.
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Thanx DH, this is very good advice
Dunno if it happens to you guys but i started producing with Reason, at the time i was making a song a month, they were crap production wise cause i didn't knew what i was doing, but the workflow was amazing, the redrum machine made nasty complex percussion lines in an inch of a second, since i moved to cubase all got very much complex and i only finished a tune or two, i'm considering moving to another daw, but the learning process's gonna hurt 
By the way, someone posted this in facebook
http://www.bitwig.com/bitwig_studio.php
already signed for the demo, maybe my workflow will improve, i dont have too much time to spare, the timestrech seems amazing |
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Icaro
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
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69
Posted : Jan 13, 2012 13:51
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Even though I say I'm focussing on creating the song first, and then mixing..... there are still things that I do mix right as soon as I select the sounds I'm using. For instance grouping of ch.s, sidechaining on the bass, etc..... but, once the intitial sounds are put into place, I'm forcing myself to leave them alone for the most part, until tracks are developed more. This keeps me from getting stuck in something like what I call 'the kick and bass trap'.
I think this has some to do with topics I've seen called 'how do you finish a track', etc.
This thread is pretty informative.... thanks Makus! |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2012 15:39
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On 2012-01-13 07:55, Equilizyme wrote:
@PoM - nice new avatar mate!
I am looking at your comment about beginners (me) messing up the sound by too intense of EQing and processing. I just spent time today using 8band EQs all all the sounds in my track. Each pole, with the exception of the high and low cuts is a 3dB OR LESS cut or boost (cuts narrow and boosts wide). As far as I can tell (listening in headphones is all I have) these adjustments have all improved the clarity of the mix. However, looking at your post I am now second guessing myself.
In your (or anyone else's) experience will these small (or at least what I consider to be small) adjustments fuck the sounds? I dont have anything to post as an example, but just let me know what you would guess from experience.
With respect to the topic - I guess what I have been finding is that I like to place things in the stereo field while I am composing. This way I get a general idea for where each sound will be placed in the field and in the freq spectrum. I save all the EQing and compression and FX fine tuning until most of the song is done. Although I find it helpful to EQ before bouncing each sound to audio, adding FX, splicing, and playing that back along with the original sound. That saves time on the EQing everything step cuz the bounced stuff is already done.
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thanks mate ! its my eL8x with black light effect
about equing dont get me wrong you can use as many bands as you want if you keep the sound natural , a problem that can hapen in some not really good produced music is that it sound processed,the aim is to keep a natural sound ,a good tonal balance,it should sound like the source was like that from the begining if possible, and not a source that have been equed inside out...
the hard part of eq adjustments is having a good room and monitor set up , in bad rooms it s easy to mess the sound more than enhance it with using lot of eq. i recomend to anyone to take his laptop and monitors and go outdoor, it s really suprising how good the monitor will sound and to hear than many of your sound are not as bad as you thought and dont need much eq to sound right |
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Alien Bug
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2012 16:10
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2012 16:10
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On 2012-01-13 15:39, PoM wrote:
i recomend to anyone to take his laptop and monitors and go outdoor, it s really suprising how good the monitor will sound and to hear than many of your sound are not as bad as you thought and dont need much eq to sound right
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basically it mean in not good condition you are equing your room coloration and not the real sound ,that what lead to over eq and less natural sound in not so good produced music |
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Ricciardo
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2012 16:49
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On 2012-01-13 02:59, PoM wrote:
no processing is better than bad processing , |
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there is no such thing... in art everything is subjective
there are elements on music that may only make sense if they are processed in a certain way
im gona give you an example...
i am producer and i created my self an original texture by using a guitar playing backwards, which by processing it playing backwords it sounded not like a guitar, but actualy a very psychedelic pad, wich had a very unique sound... organic and melodic...
this is the type of processing you should not leave into the mixing stage you all claim, because you need to create this kind of elements as essencial part and caracter on a track... this is what i am talking about
by leaving the mixing to the end of the work, you sound will lose caracter, yes it may sound more "standart", yes it may be more balanced, but in on way or another, you will lose creative apeal, flow... whatever you call it
you can be as snob as you intend, and pretend your professional because you mix in the end like it is industry standart, but that doesnt mean others dont do it dont work music properly
i allready use dynaudios and accoustical treatment to enhance my production and make the tune sound the best possible before mastering... i dont need anyone else to mix my music, because i allready consider my self good enough doing it...
so... why should i leave the mixing process to the end?? is there any real benifit from it???
absolutly none...
you all people are ajust thinking that way because you watch too many tutorials on the web, and you are confused
thouse tutorials are made as standart for an industry that actualy is for comercial studio´s work, where they mix any kind of music, they are not made for homestudio producers or individual artists
so please, cut the crap, there is no "bad processing" art is art... you cant define what is bad processing or not, because maybe what you consider "bad processing" is actually what the artist tried to give as message...
there is no rules or correct method to be creative or producing music, you may follow as much tutorials you want, but that doesnt mean you are 100% absolute right... it may work better for you in a certain way, but that doesnt mean your work better than others
this kind of topic, is a bit like DAW wars, everyone usualy tends to claim the daw they use is better than the others, bla bla bla
this is waste of time |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2012 17:00
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On 2012-01-13 16:49, Ricciardo wrote:
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On 2012-01-13 02:59, PoM wrote:
no processing is better than bad processing , |
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there is no such thing... in art everything is subjective
there are elements on music that may only make sense if they are processed in a certain way
im gona give you an example...
i am producer and i created my self an original texture by using a guitar playing backwards, which by processing it playing backwords it sounded not like a guitar, but actualy a very psychedelic pad, wich had a very unique sound... organic and melodic...
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yeah was not clear i was talking mostly about equing ,to me separating mixing stage mean separating the technical part of it to keep concentrated on the artistic part of the song ,it mean using delay reverb and all this that i consider part of the synthesis process. all this to avoid spending 15 minutes on trying compressors to get more snap out of the snare, or equing a sound so it sit perfect in the mix while you have great musical idea and just want to write the tune and not bother with production.
i think it s where is the difference between a tune with great production but poor musical idea and the oposite. you ever spend your time tweaking your eq and technical thing that will kill half of your creativty , or you spend time making melodie and developing great stories and find the right balance between both
the problem one may have to keep everything not bounced to audio to work like this ... and thats one of the major reason that forced us to mix everyhting on the go, to bounce to audio some group of sound and mangle . |
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Nomad Moon
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2012 17:42
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[/quote]
yeah was not clear i was talking mostly about equing ,to me separating mixing stage mean separating the technical part of it to keep concentrated on the artistic part of the song ,it mean using delay reverb and all this that i consider part of the synthesis process. all this to avoid spending 15 minutes on trying compressors to get more snap out of the snare, or equing a sound so it sit perfect in the mix while you have great musical idea and just want to write the tune and not bother with production.
i think it s where is the difference between a tune with great production but poor musical idea and the oposite. you ever spend your time tweaking your eq and technical thing that will kill half of your creativty , or you spend time making melodie and developing great stories and find the right balance between both
the problem one may have to keep everything not bounced to audio to work like this ... and thats one of the major reason that forced us to mix everyhting on the go, to bounce to audio some group of sound and mangle .
[/quote]
Nice one |
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Equilizyme
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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593
Posted : Jan 13, 2012 20:32
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PoM, thanks for the clarification man. I now understand what you mean.
Quote:
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i recomend to anyone to take his laptop and monitors and go outdoor, it s really suprising how good the monitor will sound and to hear than many of your sound are not as bad as you thought and dont need much eq to sound right
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^^That is also awesome advice! Thanks
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http://soundcloud.com/equilizyme
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