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The ultimate Wave vs Mp3 showdown ;-)
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AcidForAll
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
135
Posted : Aug 26, 2008 00:59
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please learn quoting, kid!!
its a pain to read it this way!! i won't!! |
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mk47
Inactive User
Started Topics :
118
Posts :
4444
Posted : Aug 26, 2008 08:12
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Quote:
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On 2008-08-26 00:59, AcidForAll wrote:
please learn quoting, kid!!
its a pain to read it this way!! i won't!!
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+1
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Aug 26, 2008 21:01
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AcidForAll
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
135
Posted : Aug 27, 2008 02:59
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On 2008-08-26 21:01, Upavas wrote:
You know what Acid for all, why don't you tell me how to quote instead of calling me kid?
I'm probably old enough to be your father, kid!
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lol, boy, its that simple 
who is gonna listen to ur mp3 arguments if u are even not smart enough to use the quote-function of this forum? |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Aug 27, 2008 03:01
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neogen
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
82
Posted : Aug 27, 2008 03:24
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all this rubbish about mp3s lol. |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Aug 27, 2008 03:32
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Upavas, you are losing credibility by the post.
UnderTow |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Aug 27, 2008 04:18
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Why? Because I can hear the difference between a wav and an mp3 file on most pa's or because I don't know how to use the quote thing? Or is it because I don't take crap from Acid?
Seriously now, how do you do it that the quoted letters are bold and what you write between isn't? I have tried by inserting quotes but does not always seem to do the trick...
 Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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neogen
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
82
Posted : Aug 27, 2008 09:06
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your losing even more cred. lol
can you hear the difference between a flac and a wav aswell?
someone should blindfold you and play the same track twice, once as wav and other as mp3, in no particular order and you guess which 1 is which, to test your talent (sarcasm) of being able to tell the difference. |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Aug 27, 2008 14:03
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On 2008-08-27 04:18, Upavas wrote:
Why? Because I can hear the difference between a wav and an mp3 file on most pa's
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No, because you don't describe your methodology which means your "tests" could be anything.
The fact that you don't describe your "tests" in absolute precision makes the reader believe that you either don't know what makes a valid test or that you are hiding something that would clearly invalidate your tests.
It doesn't really matter whether your tests are valid or not. On a forum like this, it is about the perception of the reader. Right now your claims are not entirely convincing.
At the moment it seems that you are at a party, the sound coming out of the speakers sounds like carp, you suspect MP3s, confirm with your friends on the dance floor, go up to the DJ and ask him/her and the DJ confirms that indeed they are playing MP3s.
Is that more or less right?
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or because I don't know how to use the quote thing? Or is it because I don't take crap from Acid?
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Mainly because you are getting angry and letting your self be riled by stupid comments and you are not taking the time to think through your arguments and words.
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Seriously now, how do you do it that the quoted letters are bold and what you write between isn't? I have tried by inserting quotes but does not always seem to do the trick...
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Just hit quote on any post and see how it is done. The same principal applies to multiple quoting.
UnderTow |
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mk47
Inactive User
Started Topics :
118
Posts :
4444
Posted : Aug 27, 2008 19:56
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 i like mp3s , small , good , free .. and , as it turns out .. sound exactly the same as wavs .. good stuff 
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Aug 27, 2008 20:59
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yeah, I got the general quoting allright, but the multiple quoting still eludes me.
Mind you, I hate mp3s, small, bad, free (if free that usually means the artist got once again nothing for his work) and as it turns out, many times does not sound exactly like wavs. And I can definitely hear the difference between a fart and a wav...
and it is really interesting, instead of commenting creatively like you Undertow (and I thank you for that) there do seem to be quite a lot of people in here with ego's blown up to huge proportions. And here I am thinking that differences are accepted in this family of psy heads. I guess I was wrong, a shame to see that.
Yes, it is pretty much like you suggested, and I have mentioned it several times before in this thread, in several posts. Needless to say that dj's nowadays generally never use a lower bitrate than 192.
But what really stroke me as odd, was that after playing a set many times dj's came up to me later and told me they had difficulty playing after me with mp3's no matter what they did, it always seemed to be less spl than the wavs I played or go into the red (something I avoid at all cost) and this did not just happen one or two times, it happened on many parties. Many of the dj's used a bitrate of 192, but it even happened with some guys using a bitrate of 320. And not only they could hear it, I could hear it too, quite clearly most of the time.
Now of course it is quite possible that all of the dj's mentioned above used a minor quality encoding, nevertheless, an audible difference was there, and not only reported by me but many other people.
As to getting fired for an mp3, I guess this is not the same everywhere, in my job it is. I talked to my boss about it and he said "absolutely unacceptable".
So there you have it. And now I gotta go to work... Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Aug 27, 2008 22:04
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Quote:
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On 2008-08-27 20:59, Upavas wrote:
yeah, I got the general quoting allright, but the multiple quoting still eludes me.
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Just make sure that every quote is closed. You open it without the / and close it with the /.(I obviously can't type the actual tag or the site will try and quote).
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Mind you, I hate mp3s, small, bad, free (if free that usually means the artist got once again nothing for his work) and as it turns out, many times does not sound exactly like wavs. And I can definitely hear the difference between a fart and a wav...
and it is really interesting, instead of commenting creatively like you Undertow (and I thank you for that) there do seem to be quite a lot of people in here with ego's blown up to huge proportions. And here I am thinking that differences are accepted in this family of psy heads. I guess I was wrong, a shame to see that.
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This is typical of all forums. We are not facing each other. We can't read body language. We can't see the smiles and hear the laughs. A remark that in real life would be taken as an obvious joke can be taken differently online... So we shouldn't get too
heating about online comments.
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Yes, it is pretty much like you suggested, and I have mentioned it several times before in this thread, in several posts. Needless to say that dj's nowadays generally never use a lower bitrate than 192.
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The problem with this method is that you don't catch the false negatives. (When an MP3 is played but no one can tell). In other words, this is not a scientifically valid test.
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But what really stroke me as odd, was that after playing a set many times dj's came up to me later and told me they had difficulty playing after me with mp3's no matter what they did, it always seemed to be less spl than the wavs I played or go into the red (something I avoid at all cost) and this did not just happen one or two times, it happened on many parties. Many of the dj's used a bitrate of 192, but it even happened with some guys using a bitrate of 320. And not only they could hear it, I could hear it too, quite clearly most of the time.
Now of course it is quite possible that all of the dj's mentioned above used a minor quality encoding, nevertheless, an audible difference was there, and not only reported by me but many other people.
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There could be a few factors involved:
1) MP3 DJs could be less critical about their track selection. There are many tracks that I wouldn't play when I used to DJ, not because they were not good musically but because they just didn't sound good enough. (I am talking about tracks from CDs, not MP3s).
2) The MP3 DJs are playing stuff they downloaded from the net. They have no idea how it was encoded or even re-encoded.
3) Being less critical, the DJs did not decode the MP3s properly to wave before burning CDs. For instance Winamp (used to) decode MP3s written to disk badly and chop off the top frequency ranges (this didn't happen during play back in Winamp so they might never find this out). Or maybe they are using DJ software that plays MP3s but has sub-optimal MP3 decoding.
4) They are using something like Ableton Live that stretches the MP3s thus breaking the perceptual models used to encode the MP3s.
5) They are playing less well produced music to start with...
All that said, I can easily show you some MP3s that sound better, fuller and louder than some wave files. In the end, when doing track selection as a DJ, one has to know for sure that the material sounds GOOD regardless of the format!
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As to getting fired for an mp3, I guess this is not the same everywhere, in my job it is. I talked to my boss about it and he said "absolutely unacceptable".
So there you have it. And now I gotta go to work...
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Upavas, I think we all agree that one should not use an MP3 if there is going to be any subsequent processing (as in post production).
What Spindrift is alluding to is that film sound is VERY often delivered in a format that uses lossy compression. This doesn't get processed so it is OK. This is major part of film delivery. That is why he claims that you can not say that no data compression is used in the film industry.
UnderTow |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Aug 27, 2008 22:30
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On 2008-08-27 20:59, Upavas wrote:
Mind you, I hate mp3s, small, bad, free (if free that usually means the artist got once again nothing for his work) and as it turns out, many times does not sound exactly like wavs. And I can definitely hear the difference between a fart and a wav...
and it is really interesting, instead of commenting creatively like you Undertow (and I thank you for that) there do seem to be quite a lot of people in here with ego's blown up to huge proportions. And here I am thinking that differences are accepted in this family of psy heads. I guess I was wrong, a shame to see that. |
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Upavas, I think you should read trough my first replies to your posts in this thread again.
You started making a bunch of claims that was obviously false such as that mp3 is using DPCM and works by removing frequencies.
All I did was to challenge those claims since I'm not a great fan of obvious misinformation.
If you think that it's a sign of a big ego to correct your errors you really suffer from hubris.
An attitude where you don't object to obvious misinformation might be really PLUR, but in that case PLUR is just dumb. Spreading misinformation has nothing to do with being different, and me correcting you have nothing to do with not accepting you as a person.
The reason I object is not for my benefit, I already know that your claims was incorrect and I doubt my involvement in heated arguments like this in some way would give me some kind of status in the community. There are much better ways of achieving that if that was my motivation. I object because I think disinformation is a disservice to you and everyone who reads your posts.
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Yes, it is pretty much like you suggested, and I have mentioned it several times before in this thread, in several posts.
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But you did claim "I made plenty blind tests on plenty of parties".
What Undertow described was surely not blind tests...so which is it, have you done blind tests or not?
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But what really stroke me as odd, was that after playing a set many times dj's came up to me later and told me they had difficulty playing after me with mp3's no matter what they did, it always seemed to be less spl than the wavs I played or go into the red (something I avoid at all cost) and this did not just happen one or two times, it happened on many parties. Many of the dj's used a bitrate of 192, but it even happened with some guys using a bitrate of 320. And not only they could hear it, I could hear it too, quite clearly most of the time.
Now of course it is quite possible that all of the dj's mentioned above used a minor quality encoding, nevertheless, an audible difference was there, and not only reported by me but many other people. |
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When I DJ I mostly play wav files but there are some material only available as mp3, and I never had that issue.
There are so many factors in play here so it's really hard to say where the cause lies for your experience and I would not jump to conclusions before I made tests to ensure that it's actually the mp3 format in itself that cases the difference you describe.
I notice that many times DJ's don't manage to get the same volume from the PA, but usually that is because they are not good with balancing the EQ to get the maximum loudness. Maybe DJ's playing mp3's just happen to be less experienced in general?
Or maybe they use different playback equipment?
Maybe the software they use have replay gain active which will lower the level on pretty much any psytrance song when you play it back as an mp3?
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As to getting fired for an mp3, I guess this is not the same everywhere, in my job it is. I talked to my boss about it and he said "absolutely unacceptable".
So there you have it. And now I gotta go to work...
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Like I said mp3 is intended to be used to play back a final mix and using during production is as a rule a bad idea.
Regarding the studios that do use mp3's to facilitate doing sessions with performers in different parts of the world it doesn't seem like you understand the reason as to why that is done.
Of course if it always was an option to instead use 24 bit wav there would be no need for that kind of facilities, but 24 bit wav can be hard to stream in real-time across the world.
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The Chilling Spirit
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
332
Posted : Aug 28, 2008 11:40
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Sometimes I listen to live music, with bad singers, no post-processing, parts where some member of the band screws up and noise from the crowd or the environment taint the holyness of musical waves.
I love that.
I think you two are talking into different directions.
No-one would argue that one should blindly(!) go with using lossy encoded files in production, right?
And no-one would be so deluded to think that you can hear the difference between (good) lossy and lossless in a party environment, right?
Maybe those DJs who emptied the dancefloor just sucked badly at entertaining the crowd? Ridden with selfdoubt about their performance they play emo-psy and push the dancing trancers into bad trips.
Dear God, everytime I see a movie in cinema being played from analogue sources it sucks. But then the Highschool Musical movie in HD with 10.5 Dildo Digital was awesome!!!!!11
http://enjoys.it |
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