| Author
|
The Mother of All PRODUCTION TRICKS Thread
|
djzed
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
48
Posted : Sep 5, 2006 05:31
|
Quote:
|
On 2006-09-04 03:07, br0d wrote:
You know what I am trying to track down now, is a sidechaining compressor that not only does frequency dependent keying (many do, like compadre) but one which also does multiband on output, so you don't have to rely so much on attack and release to keep the kick from borking up the HF content of the bassline on beat 1.
|
|
Same! Let me know if you have any luck finding such a thing. |
|
|
dtd
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
17
Posts :
490
Posted : Sep 5, 2006 09:33
|
you can split up the bassline to two busses, one with low freq, the other with hi freq content (use a simple low pass, for the other a hi pass filter). then just side-chain compress the bus with low bass freq, and leave the other alone.
why not that way? |
|
|
|
br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Sep 5, 2006 10:28
|
Quote:
|
On 2006-09-05 09:33, dtd wrote:
you can split up the bassline to two busses, one with low freq, the other with hi freq content (use a simple low pass, for the other a hi pass filter). then just side-chain compress the bus with low bass freq, and leave the other alone.
why not that way?
|
|
Good thinking and a decent hack, I've tried the "mult and filter" thing before (although not with sidechaining) and I think it sounds weird, probably because the crossover points for the filters are not especially accurate or clean, or good for the sound. Maybe if you did it with a really high quality EQ but in my experience it just sounds phasey.
Ideally it would be like a quadrophonic (ie, stereo duckable), sidechainable version of this guy:
http://www.waves.com/content.asp?id=138
which can do adaptive phase compression as seen in chapter 3 here:
http://www.waves.com/download/pdf/LinMB.pdf |
|
|
|
br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Sep 5, 2006 11:15
|
Ok, this is from the GAC-1 User's Manual, which can be found in the GAC-1 demo install directory:
From page 9, FX routings 7&8:
7: SELECTIVE COMPRESSION
"EQ2 splits the signal. The normal equalized signal goes directly to output and a difference signal (in – out on EQ2) goes to Compressor 2. The result: frequency areas boosted by EQ2 are expanded, while cut areas are compressed."
8: SELECTIVE COMPRESSION WITH SIDE FILTER
"It looks complex indeed but it is just like the routing above, except that this time EQ1 is used as a side chain filter. This way the compression depth will depend on the equalized spectrum of EQ1."
Somebody demo the GAC-1 and report back.
http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/gac-1.php
I'm at work. 
If this does what I think it does, Torben strikes again...he is such a top notch plugin developer. |
|
|
|
sy000321
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
1142
Posted : Sep 8, 2006 04:40
|
hi
my tracks are mostly too soft and im trying to improve on that 
here's what i know:
1- reducing the peaks with compressing/limiting to rise overall level of a part (im still a bit insecure about attack/release settings but recently i've been understanding those a bit more);
2- using eq to fill less crowded freqs (cant say i really can do this, but in theory at least it should work);
3- using panning to be able to fit more at the same time (should rise rms count,no?);
4- cutting lows from basslines (because they have more energy) but i wont do this because it makes you sound thin and like skazy (skazy and other use this trick for more rms, but i think its a bad ideia)
5 - using a limiter in the bus, but i dont do this because i dont like processing the bus...
okay... 3 cool tips and 2 crappy ones... any one got more to spare?
thanks
joao
 roll a joint or STFU :) |
|
|
|
sy000321
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
1142
Posted : Sep 8, 2006 04:44
|
GAC looks like the cockpit from one of the apolo missions
please give us feedback on your results!
thanks
joão
roll a joint or STFU :) |
|
|
|
assaf_zo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
141
Posted : Sep 8, 2006 06:29
|
Hi,
i find this problem pretty much annoying
cause thats what i miss the most,
does it a good tip to put limiter on main bus at the start of ur work ?
and if anyone can give infomation about trance db rates it'll be great
(kick -9db/-3db, bass... and so on)
and how can i check what is the true db rate with cubase native tools
HUGE BIG BLUE-MARVEL THAT WE LIVE ON |
|
|
|
Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
356
Posted : Sep 8, 2006 06:54
|
Trance is trance and all but I find -10db rms to be WAY too over compressed. Trance production seems to often ignore the so called "rules" of good production in the music industry in general, but most professional (non-trance/dance music, although even many of them will agree) mastering engineers prefer they files they are mastering to "peak" somewhere around -6 db and have the rms much much much lower than -10 db rms (at -10 db there is almost nothing a mastering engineer can do to a track. its simply too flat). Almost every mastering engineer I have read or talked to will say that having the finished, mastered product at -10db rms is far too over compressed and will give almost always sound like crap.
(On a side note, I wonder if anyone has ever considered as one factor in the declining sales of psy-trance the last few years whether these massively over compressed releases these days are simply difficult too listen to for long periods of time and people just don't bother buying them as they subconciously can't listen to music that dynamically flat for long periods of time and just go and change cds after a track or two?)
Anyways, another big no-no in general is putting a limiter on the master bus. I constantly tell the artists on PAR-2 to NOT put anything on the master bus but many of them still do anyways thinking it won't matter that much (of course they "tell" me they didn't put anything on master bus but...). Of course as soon as you open the files in you can tell. All the peaks perfectly peak out at 0 or 0.2 db, the rms is -12 db to -10db. The mastering engineer calls me back asking for files he can work with.... etc. etc
New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
PAR-2 Productions http://www.par-2.com |
|
|
|
djzed
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
48
Posted : Sep 8, 2006 10:07
|
Quote:
|
On 2006-09-08 06:54, Jikkenteki wrote:
Trance is trance and all but I find -10db rms to be WAY too over compressed. Trance production seems to often ignore the so called "rules" of good production in the music industry in general, but most professional (non-trance/dance music, although even many of them will agree) mastering engineers prefer they files they are mastering to "peak" somewhere around -6 db and have the rms much much much lower than -10 db rms (at -10 db there is almost nothing a mastering engineer can do to a track. its simply too flat). Almost every mastering engineer I have read or talked to will say that having the finished, mastered product at -10db rms is far too over compressed and will give almost always sound like crap.
|
|
Could you give an example of a commercial trance track that you believe to be "over-compressed" ? |
|
|
|
Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
356
Posted : Sep 8, 2006 16:21
|
Quote:
|
On 2006-09-08 10:07, djzed wrote:
Could you give an example of a commercial trance track that you believe to be "over-compressed" ?
|
|
Hmmmm, grab just about anything at random really.  But on a more serious note I usually hear the -16 db to 14 db range being sited as roughly the ideal range for "proper" mastering of good pumping music on the CD media. Let's see how some psy releases hold up. (fires up Wavelab)
Two examples that come to mind of over-compressed albums are Filteria's first album and The Misted Muppet album, both of which, based on a random sample and analysis of some tracks I just did seem to float around -11 db rms (which is kind of the threshold of where things start to completely go to crap in most cases). Both of these albums are albums I love musically, but I just can't seem to listen to much for extended periods.
For some other examples...
The Delta - Def By Delta.... I've listened to this album over and over for years now. This tracks average RMS is -13.5db rms
Hallucinogen and Lucas - Pipeworm.... Good track, but you can actually here it pumping due to the heavy compression in a several places. Average rms -10.9 db.
Compare that to..
Hallucinogen - LSD.... Average rms -16 db, but that track has a long intro so lets look at....
Hallicinogen - Fluoro Neuro Sponge: average rms -13.8 db.
Everyone likes to complain how new Infected Mushroom is so hard to listen to so lets compare a few tracks here. From the last album.....
Infected Mushroom - Ratio Shmatio. I recalling liking this track musically, but I never seem to play it. Average RMS a shockingly crushed - 9.4 db!!!!
Infected Mushroom - Tasty Mushroom from what is probably the single psy album I have listened to the most, B.P. Empire. Average rms, a significantly lower -13.8 db
and from the classic "Classical Mushroom"
Infected Mushroom - Sailing The Seas Of Mushroom. Average rms is - 14 db.
Out of curiousity...
Skazi - Hit and Run from his new album. - 10 db RMS here
I did a random sampling of more recent tracks I like and can listen versus ones I have trouble listening to a lot even though I like the music. It seems that for the most part that the -12 db to -11 db range seems to be the breaking point. Some tracks can handle that range, but others seem to start losing it. after -11 db I found very little in my regular playing list that was compressed that much and most of my personal favorites seem to have an average rms around the -13 db range.
Granted this was all taken done at random while I typed this and there surely will be exceptions either way, but the over all the results basically ended up just about where I figured they would be.
New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
PAR-2 Productions http://www.par-2.com |
|
|
|
AvS
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
464
Posted : Sep 8, 2006 20:16
|
Talking overcompressed tracks:
Protoculture - Digital World
This is the worst case Ive heard in a long time.
Note: Actually some tracks can be louder than other without actually being overcompressed in the mastering stage. I think IM - IM The Supervisor (the whole album) sounds pretty pleasent compared to how loud it actually is. It all depend on the mix.
I think IM are REALLY good at mixing their tracks so they can get loud wihout their master compressor working to hard. The "secret" is soft clipping or just clipping you converters. You can "shave" of some dB's of each sample or synth sound used in a track without hearing distortion. Sofclipping doesnt work on dynamics like a limiter or a compressor, so you don't get any nasty pumping using softclipping.
Another important factor is making shure that there is space between sounds and not playing sounds at the same time, that are placed more or less the same place in the frequency range. Lots of times its not really necessary to trigger different sounds at the same time. Keep that in mind IF you want a louder mix.
Personally I find loudness maximizing tracks a waste of time.
|
|
|
|
Dark_Dork
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
1266
Posted : Sep 8, 2006 20:56
|
What is softclipping?
And can you explain a bit more on RMS, what is it actually and why some levels of it makes it harder to listen to a track? Dressed to kill you look so right... I am drunk with lust tonite. |
|
|
|
AvS
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
464
Posted : Sep 8, 2006 22:47
|
Softclipping is just a way of clipping you signal that is hard to hear. Usually when your sound clips (hits the red on you mixer for example) you can hear it distorting but softclipping makes the edges of the audio more soft so it doesnt sound harsh ot bad, when used with care of course.
RMS is the average level of a track. 0 dBfs is the loudest you can get in digital audio. Actually you can have a track that is measures louder than an other track but sounds more quiet.
This is because we humans persieve some frequencies as louder even though they dont contain as much energy as another sound that appears quiter. So dont use RMS as a rule like saying "i want this track to be -11dBfs" when masterred.
The reason why some tracks are harder to listen to? In general really loud tracks are not very pleasant to listen to because you have a compressor or a limiter trying to keep the volume constant all the time (more or less..). Also some dynamic processors are better/sounds more natural than others. |
|
|
|
sy000321
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
1142
Posted : Sep 8, 2006 23:06
|
@Jikkenteki
first of all thanks for showing so much insight
i've to agree with you. mostly because the tracks i was comparing my own to (wich are EXTREMLY louder) are in an albums wich i cant listen for long periods because i my head starts hurting (i thought i had a problem, no i see were the problem is...)
the fact is that if you dont compress people complain it aint compressed...
i guess the tracks i'm comparing to the loudness range goes from absolute silence, loud and very loud (can that be the reason that glitchin/stutering is so popular now? people might enjoy those milisecs of silence
maybe as usual the trick is "to do it, but not overdo it"
and now im much more comfortable with my tracks db levels
thanks
roll a joint or STFU :) |
|
|
|
djzed
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
48
Posted : Sep 9, 2006 04:10
|
This is obviously very subjective, we cannot really say that a track is objectively "easier to listen to".
Now I am by no means an expert in mastering, but I have spent time with a few mastering engineers (and good ones to) and what I understood from them is that generally a smaller dynamic range makes your track more comfortable on the ear. This makes sense to me because if you have a wider dynamic range there might be parts that you cannot hear as well, so you'll crank up the volume. But then if you do that the parts which do peak in your track will be harsh on your ears. Do people agree with this?
Also what i gathered is that one of the aims of mastering nowadays is to get your track as loud as possible (or at least appearing that way). I'm not sure why this is, I guess it's just fashionable production standards.
I find IM's im the supervisor quite pleasent on the ears, but i think this is because IM know how to space out their percussion sounds so that thier mix doesnt sound like a messy glob, all the sounds are very well defined.
But again this is all subjective, I just thought I'd share some other points of view. |
|
|
|
