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The MOTHER of all Mixdowns
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Get-a-fix
Getafix
Started Topics :
147
Posts :
1441
Posted : Sep 4, 2006 11:32
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Hey guys,
We've got a pretty good collection of info here about production techniques but no one has talked about mixdowns, something i feel is very important..
So i'd like to know what your mixdown techniques are..Do you mixdown in stems? That is, mixdown separate wavs for all the synths, percussion, fx & bass & kick?
Or do you just do one mixdown with all your stuff, like i do?
Finally there's another thing that i've always been confused about, whether or not to touch the master fader..
Usually when i write my songs i have to pull down the master by almost 10db so it doesn't clip (I mixdown in 32 bit)..
So is it better to leave the master fader untouched & lower each indiviual channel on the mixer? Or is it the same thing? Am i losing an quality if i put down the master by say 15db?
Thanks & look forward to your replies!
  http://www.soundcloud.com/getafixmusic |
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Sep 4, 2006 18:10
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Am i losing an quality if i put down the master by say 15db?
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no, they way you do it is correct. if your channels are all as high as possible in the mix under maximum 0 db, everything is correct. the masterfade should even be under 0db max. as possible. if you use cubase take care that you dont have effects loaded in the last 2 insert-effects because they process the signal after the main-out.
about mixing down does someone allready have found out how to split the track into different mixdown-channels by one click? |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
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3709
Posted : Sep 4, 2006 22:06
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i dont see the point of mixing every single channel as loud as possible and then lower the mainout by 15db... then why not begin with lowering the master fader to -15db and mix from there... i cant see the point
make some sense, cause i dont get it?
if its clipping its clipping, so you lower the master volume and poof the clipping is gone, i mean why not mix with some headroom in the begining.. and if you get the "perfect mix" but its a little too hot then maybe lower the master fader by some dB´s to get some headroom for premaster.
and also i always check "meter input" so no synths/instruments are clipping from the input,
the thing about losing bits and stuff in the digital domain if you dont record as hot as possible is understandable, but why dose one have to mix as hot as possible? is it about noise introduction when you do the final maximizing or just losing bits? and how important are those bits when we speak about a minimal dB change..
if i mix too low, but i got a very nice mix, what should i do, remix and make the mix hotter, or just maximize the whole thing in the end...
nice topic 
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Get-a-fix
Getafix
Started Topics :
147
Posts :
1441
Posted : Sep 5, 2006 00:01
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^^^
I can't really say what the benefits are but that's just the way i mix..I never touch the individual faders but instead rely on the volume & settings of the vsti itself to get the levels right..
This way everything is balanced & besides after mixing for a long time your ears get used to the sound & you can start pushing faders up & down..Next morning you'll hear the track & be surprised..
So no one mixes down in stems? I've thought about doing that to make mixes cleaner..You can make sure all the tracks are highpassed correctly & each sound gets its own space..
http://www.soundcloud.com/getafixmusic |
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br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Sep 5, 2006 04:30
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lol this mother thing is getting out of hand |
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br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Sep 5, 2006 04:34
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On 2006-09-04 11:32, S-Cube wrote:
Or do you just do one mixdown with all your stuff, like i do? |
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Since SX is PDC and VSTi is sample accurate, there is no point IMO to bouncedowns unless you want to A) offline process some wavs or b) save some CPU. Those are the two reasons I bounce anything, otherwise its nothing but a single export at the end.
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| So is it better to leave the master fader untouched & lower each indiviual channel on the mixer? Or is it the same thing? Am i losing an quality if i put down the master by say 15db? |
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I can't speak to other hosts but in SX the individual channels have far more headroom than the master so you are better off letting them push 0db and then sum the master to something ridiculous like +10db, and then pulling down the master. Maybe later I will post the exact technical answer, I know my response is vague. Ultimately like NES says it's not that big of a deal, especially in trance where the RMS is like -10dB to begin with. At worst one reverb tail somewhere in the quiet part of the song would end up sounding slightly aliased. People worry too much about this stuff, some of the best music ever was mixed at 16bit and most of it at 24.
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illusions
Erebus
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
626
Posted : Sep 5, 2006 10:41
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good topic. mixdown techniques im interested in as well - i usually have my channels close to 0db, and then pull the master down to avoid clipping.
i've been doing the stems mixing for a while now and have fairly good results. some of the EQ's (especially Waves REQ's) seem to let things through occasionally. By doing a stems mix, I can clearly work with my different frequency bands and make sure the mix stays as clean as possible. |
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
356
Posted : Sep 5, 2006 19:34
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An old mixing technique I used to do a lot back in my analog band days that I've recently revived (and has improved my mixes a lot) is to do my first run through mixdown in mono, not stereo. Even try working the pan knobs while in mono. Once you have everything sounding good in mono, they open it back up to stereo and fine tune your mix.
It seems weird at first, but it really makes a difference. Most people don't listen to music in a perfect stereo setting so this kind of gets everything so that it is generally right in most normal listening evironments.
As for how to switch it to mono, if you aren't using an outboard mixer, SX1 had a button on the master fader where you could switch between mono and stereo with one click, but that seems to have gone away. To get the same effect I often just throw a compressor on the master channel with no compression happening and run it in mono. Once the mono mix down is finished I just remove it and fine tune everything.
Another good tip is don't mix at loud volumes. Loud volumes with fatigue your ears quickly (you'll usually end up adding too much in the high freqs) and again can trick your ears as to how properly balanced a mix really is (i.e. the its easy to hear something when its loud, but turn the volume down the bit and add some background noise and all your cool subtle parts vanish problem). A lot of pro. mixers seem to say that mixing at the volume of a normal coversation is just about right.
Use a lot of mono channels. Unless you are going for some serious massive stereo effects, 99.9% of your minor stereo stuff on your leads and such will never be noticed. It eats up a lot of head room and doesn't give you much benefit. Interestingly I've also heard a lot of mixers say that when given a blind comparision, most people tend to prefer the sound of parts recorded in mono. Of course you don't have to do EVERYTHING in mono, but it gives you a lot more control in the mixdown process, and helps your true stereos parts stand out properly.
Do a lot of minor panning on channels to free up head room and give parts their own space in the mix (I tend to actually do this while things are still in mono, often a part with "fall" into the right spot and suddenly stand out a little more). It doesn't have to be massive, just a little bit does a lot.
For big stereo parts, render the parts as separate left and right channels so you can adjust the depth of the panning on those channels as well. If everything stereo is a normal stereo interlaced file, basically you are ending up with everything at 100% left/right and gain, parts often end up fighting for their own sonic space there.
There are a million other tips, but these are the main ones I've been using lately.
New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Sep 5, 2006 22:39
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Jikkenteki - great advice, iv been in the mono thoughts latley, i bought some hifi speakers and i sat down and just listend to music, and tried to get into the picture and what you says confirm my thoughts, mono will give you that center voice and its very cool.. just like the sound is in the middle outside the speakers...
panning sounds and placing them in the stereo image is really important. and like you say Jikkenteki, using mono makes the stereo effect bigger.
i have a question about the mono mixdown:
if you have a stereo effect wont it disapear when you make it mono?
iv been checking different tracks with the mono button on my amp to listen how the mix change, and on some tracks its rather radical change and some is not...
tell me more about the mono mixdown and converting back to stereo, do you treat the stereo file in somekind of way, or are you using the m/s technique?
http://www.wikirecording.org/Mid-Side_Microphone_Technique
i know it works to do it when mixing aswell
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
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5380
Posted : Sep 5, 2006 23:31
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On 2006-09-05 19:34, Jikkenteki wrote:
As for how to switch it to mono, if you aren't using an outboard mixer, SX1 had a button on the master fader where you could switch between mono and stereo with one click, but that seems to have gone away. To get the same effect I often just throw a compressor on the master channel with no compression happening and run it in mono. |
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You can also put something like Waves S1 on the master buss (width = 0, full rotation) so that both sides are directed to only one speaker; you can then switch this on and off as required. The main advantage of doing it this way is that your can listen in 'true mono', ie. mono with only one speaker. Panning both sides of the stereo image to the middle in order to create a mono mix relies on the speakers to be correctly set up to generate a perfect phantom image; listening with only one speaker removes this.
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| For big stereo parts, render the parts as separate left and right channels so you can adjust the depth of the panning on those channels as well. |
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Alternatively, if you use SX2 or SX3, you can simply right-click on stereo channel's pan control and select one of the alternative panning modes, which allow you to separately pan either side of the stereo channel.
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Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Meta
Meta/Boomslang
Started Topics :
24
Posts :
1045
Posted : Sep 6, 2006 01:13
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On 2006-09-05 00:01, S-Cube wrote:
So no one mixes down in stems? I've thought about doing that to make mixes cleaner..You can make sure all the tracks are highpassed correctly & each sound gets its own space..
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I use group channels - usually 3 groups, one for kick/bass, once for drums and one for syths & sounds. It makes it easier to pull down the sound if the master clips, and it's easy to solo the different groups and see how they compare when one big part of the mix is muted (kick/bass and drums only, drums and synth only etc).
When using this method, I link the volume of the send FX buses to the Synth group to keep the send FX level proportionate.
http://soundcloud.com/aeon604
http://www.metaekstasis.com/
http://the1134.com/ |
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john c
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
57
Posted : Sep 7, 2006 00:57
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well we talked about this extensively in an older thread (too lazy to research this). I think we all agreed that in Cubase, past -6 on the master fader, u start losing bits and quality. so its very important to keep the master fader as high as possible. A general rule I use now based on my experience and other';s advice is to start like this: keep the master fader anywhere from like -3 to -6, solo the kick and hear that when it hits, ur peak is -5db on the master fader. Then adjust volume relative to this and if its clipping u need EQ. around this i get around -9db RNS |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
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5380
Posted : Sep 7, 2006 01:55
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psylevation
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
52
Posts :
841
Posted : Sep 7, 2006 02:33
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On 2006-09-05 23:31, Colin OOOD wrote:
You can also put something like Waves S1 on the master buss (width = 0, full rotation) so that both sides are directed to only one speaker; you can then switch this on and off as required. The main advantage of doing it this way is that your can listen in 'true mono', ie. mono with only one speaker. Panning both sides of the stereo image to the middle in order to create a mono mix relies on the speakers to be correctly set up to generate a perfect phantom image; listening with only one speaker removes this.
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If you are doing your mixing with just one speaker, how can you do any panning? Or will it still change how the sounds affect each other depending on your panning position, like volume and relation to each other etc...? |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Sep 7, 2006 02:36
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I thought we had agreed that some plugins clip when above 0db FS so we should just stick to below 0 dB FS. Lol 
Anyway, since that discussion I have been doing tests and some plugins definately sound cleaner if you don't push them as hard. According to some of the people I have been asking, it has to do with how the anti-imaging filters start falling to bits at higher levels. The coders assume people won't be running at + 15 dB FS. 
I say don't ever let the red lights light up!
Btw, there are some very good mixing tips in the DVD "Mix it like a record" by Charles Dye. (He mixes some lame pop/rock band but the ideas are valid for all music).
UnderTow |
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