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Trance Forum ť ť Forum Production & Music Making - The mother of all arrangement?

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The mother of all arrangement?

Saf

Started Topics : 5
Posts : 210
Posted : Oct 31, 2006 03:11

Hi there. I'm currently trying to learn about how a psy track's parts are arranged, and the many ways the parts are linked together. After ripping a few tracks and dropping them into a cubase project with the right bpm to look at, I've noticed a few things.

For instance, I've found that things are usually grouped into small sections of 32 beats (4 bars), often with a crash signifying the beginning of a new 32 beat section. These groups of 32 beats are often done in groups of 4 or more themselves, with a drop out having the kick/bass stop for either one whole bar, or a half bar at the end.

I'd like this thread to discuss why that sort of thing is done, for instance:
- to make transitions smoother
- or to add tension,
- to help DJs identify patterns
- to match up with other tracks to make mixing easier for DJs

And also to give advice on those aspects of making a psy track.

I know these things are not set in stone, but these kind of things would be great for new people like myself to learn, and later rules to break.

bukboy
Hyperboreans

Started Topics : 40
Posts : 803
Posted : Oct 31, 2006 08:15

I dont think that what uve asked is that easy to explain.
Arrangement implies knowledge of music theory about stability, balance, symmetry ,openess to do with rhythm, melody, harmonic motion of phrases, motives, sections, and on a larger scale the form.

An arranger uses these concepts to fix mistakes in the writers song, or adapt the song to different needs. This may include changes to any of the mentioned concepts like rhythm, harmony, melody, form, etc...

The rules are more guidelines and even the 32 beat (8 bar) thing makes assumptions that ur working with 4 x 2 bar phrases, or 8x1bar phrases, or even 2x4bar phrases. the eveness of it is what makes the piece balanced and to some degree trancey. and if u wanted to surprise the listener u might not satisfy him by providing an even phrase set(not 32 beat), thereby increasin tension possibly as a transition. u can also use a melody made up of differing size of phrases or even use a non 32 beat section.

I think I understand your question. The book that helped me the most with this is

Melody in Songwriting: Tools and Techniques for Writing Hit Songs (Berklee Guide)

It really is great. If some1 knows something better please post the name.

The thing is that its not so much arrangemenet knowledge u need, just plain music theory.

Saf

Started Topics : 5
Posts : 210
Posted : Oct 31, 2006 10:39

Thanks for replying. Yeah I meant 32 beats = 8 bar, I think I typo'd that.

Can we talk about some techniques for causing a track to feel as though it's moving forward? Building up?

A track is always changing it is not just different sections of music that abruptly change. Also, trance doesn't just blend a bunch of melodies and soundfx together all the time to progress, it has little segways, fills and things, which is one thing I would like to discuss and learn about.

I sometimes find it hard to introduce new material into a track, or say, even something like just change from a k_bb style kick/bassline to a kbbb one. It just sounds wrong at times. In some tracks I will often hear the drums and bass drop out for a bar at times when things like that change, and it makes it sound smooth.

Also, certain common measurements of things like phrases were unknown to me for a while, until I was told that they help djs phrasematch.

I am asking for a general discussion of how people here like to put their tracks together, and what they find works and sounds good, beyond just making a sweet bassline, and overlaying lead melodies and sound fx.

I also sort of don't know exactly what I'm asking, if I did I would just ask it

I am just trying to spark discussion in that general direction so I might learn some things I didn't know. I hope I kind of made it more clear though.

bukboy
Hyperboreans

Started Topics : 40
Posts : 803
Posted : Oct 31, 2006 11:16

I dont think ur asking about arrangement. The composer composes the song, the arranger remixes the song, or alters it in some way.
Ur asking about composition devices.

Music theory techniques to intensify tracks, one trick that comes to mind is rhythmic acceleration and deceleration. Basically use more notes/shorter notes in a later phrase, and it will seem like the song is gaining energy.
and vice versa.
Crescendo, more volume, more instruments, more registers(a register is how low or high the average pitch is of an instrument or track)

Motion forward comes from putting instablility in2 a song, and then returning to stability again(if u like a rewarding motion).
U can do this with changes in rhythm(changing the phrases), harmony , melody pitches, contour (direction of a melody), texture(amount of voices).... friggin anything thats unexpected moves it forward:-)(just dont confuse the listener with too much instability)

The drums dropping out can have the effect of simply frustrating the expectations and building suspense, or even directing attention to something else u think is important like a little lead.

The kbbb thing I think is a production issue, not composition or arrangement, although I can see that it might b used to accelerate the track.

There are no easy answers to your questions.I really do reccommend u look in2 understanding musical devices.

Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics : 84
Posts : 981
Posted : Oct 31, 2006 11:21

There is no definite structure other than 'if its 4/4 then it makes musical sense to divide the song into multiples of 4 bar sections'. Or less I suppose, but that would imply changes more often. I find its best to let people get into the song by letting things go on for just the right amount of time.

Assume that each 'X' represents 2 bars, you should maybe sketch out your song on paper before you start, like this:

4X intro.
8X introduction of key elements (kick, bass, some melody)
4X first minor drop
4X build up to all elements playing together add more elements
8X full on bit
4X BIG drop
8X full on bit / maybe add variations
8X less elements
1X break to remove elements
8X play out

I dunno.. thats just a rough idea. Obviously add drum variations, build ups to each section and production ideas like bass shifts, dropouts, etc.

One thing I think you can get away with that totally breaks the rules, are 1 bar breaks. As long as they are in the right place, you can do some mad things between 4 missing beats.

The introduction of new elements, and in a sense, the building up to the 'everything playing at once' parts are a matter of opinion. One persons full on, might not be someone elses. One thing to note, if you can't get a new element to fit - then it probably isn't right. Get rid of it, no matter how long it took, and start again until you're happy and your ears are happy. I almost ruined my last track with a melody that I wanted to stick with, until my brother walked in while it was playing and said 'what the F*** is that?!' I swapped it for something we both agreed was good, and I was a lot happier.

As for tension. Trance is built on tension and release, and that all comes during the build up to change. Snare rolls are the simplest build up element I can think of. Bukboy has some superb ideas above, though skill in mixing in those elements will take time to develop.

And Djs identifying patterns.. you can make your tracks more DJ friendly with some predictable simplicity at the beginning and end of each track, but the DJ should have really practiced mixing the track BEFORE he goes on stage so it's not really your concern if he doesn't know where the changes and intro/outro are.

Tom's tip:
In cubase I create a midi track at the top of all the tracks called 'Counter' then I make a 4 bar midi part and duplicate it along the length of the entire track.
You may not need it, but it helps me glance up and count how far into a section I am and how long I have to go before I should think about making a change.

Psyjinx

Started Topics : 3
Posts : 35
Posted : Oct 31, 2006 12:21

There is so much you could write about this... I usually try and get a rough frame work of a track down first. The main ideas, the main lead lines and the general direction the track will take. At this point I'm not really worried about where fills are or where changes are going to be. After this I start to arrange the track. I generally do this by making changes where they FEEL right... not by where a DJ might need them, or according to a set pattern. Personally I would shy away from the 32 bars/crash/change pattern arrangement or your music will sound very boring. As for making changes more exciting, or building tension etc. Sometimes very small changes make a huge difference if done properly... for example adding or taking out the open hi hats... or taking out the running hi hats. It's all about adding and taking away. It takes a long,long,long time and a lot of very hard work and lot's of initial frustration to get good at. But keep trying!!

Saf

Started Topics : 5
Posts : 210
Posted : Oct 31, 2006 12:51

Quote:

On 2006-10-31 11:21, Tomos wrote:

Tom's tip:
In cubase I create a midi track at the top of all the tracks called 'Counter' then I make a 4 bar midi part and duplicate it along the length of the entire track.
You may not need it, but it helps me glance up and count how far into a section I am and how long I have to go before I should think about making a change.

Yeah, I do this exact same thing to count bars of 4.

You're right, 'arrangement' might have been the wrong word to use.

In Trance there is a larger structure: intro - build - little break - bigger build - bigger break - etc - outro. And then there is a micro-structure within each phrase a lot of times.

Lately when listening to music, I have begun counting beats and bars in my head. I am beginning to be able to make very acurate predictions as to what is going to happen and when. I'm no DJ but I assume they do this too.

Take Shift for example. I think he's really awesome, but perhaps predictable in structure since I can tell he's going to hit a crash every 2 bars, and he's going to dropout or add offbeat kicks every 4 bars and then change/add something. Lots of other artists I've been counting out are the same, rad music, but there's this structure underneath that I'm trying to figure out.

I'm trying to find out if these structures are nessessary or helpful to know about, or if they help define psytrance in some way, and if anyone can mention some I have not noticed yet.

I agree that following a strict forumla is probably not good, but I would still like to know the forumla.

As confused as I was starting out this thread, this is indeed what I wanted to talk about.

bukboy
Hyperboreans

Started Topics : 40
Posts : 803
Posted : Oct 31, 2006 14:20

Different artists uses different forms(what u call structure)
I am sure that a knowledge of form will help u in making decisions as to what effect u wish 2 accomplish with a track.
Different forms have different effects, some are simpler, like ABA, where basically an idea is presented then improvised and then repeated. Doesnt put too much effort on the listeners shoulders. Folk tunes do this.
Or u could have the whole modern Intro, verse, transitional bridge, chorus, verse, bridge, chorus, coda.
Also what u should consider is that listeners have expectations of each section. Like a verse or bridge is supposed to be "open" whereas a chorus is "closed". Openess implies that the section will continue in2 something else, whereas closedness implies it will not.
And the corresponding sections must b written with musical devices that promote this openess or closedness.
And u can also use this as an effect to reward or frustrate your listener. give them what they expect or not.
In any case a form is adopted more for effect, less for conformance.
I myself like varied trance, so I tend to enjoy variety in form myself rather than a strict conformance, but each to his own.
But u should listen to Tomos becoz thats a solid form hes got.Just know Y its there b4 u copy it.

Saf

Started Topics : 5
Posts : 210
Posted : Oct 31, 2006 14:34

Thanks bukboy. I don't have a lot of people around to discuss this stuff and learn from, so this helps me out a lot.

I believe I will take some of your advice and see what more I can learn about musical devices.