rms means root mean square and you´re very welcome to have a look here on wiki, which i quite found to be pretty hard to understand even in german (i´m german so =D).
in short i will try to explain in my own words and hope someones correcting me if im wrong.
so there are different ways to measure a signal, the ones we tend to use most is rms and peak. peak is simply the loudest "spot" in a track or a signal. so the highest peak is just showing the "loudest" spot. loud is maybe wrong on that case, cause i would take the term loud for rms, which means the "spot" you feel loudest. so imo for the "loudest" (peak) spot something like "highest gain" would be more informative and right at the end.
so.....an example maybe gives if you hit the c note at first or second octave, have a listen and keep in mind how you felt the level of the signal. dont change anything, keep the same level and now hit the same note just few octaves higher. i guess you will feel the same like me, the second note some octaves higher, seems to have more gain. so..... at the end this is the "phenomenon" of rms you feel different to the peak level of a signal, even if it´s the same. a higher note seems always to be higher in level compared to a lower one.
narrrgh, maybe someone will explain some better, sorry if im talking french to you now
back to the topic, sucks im on live 7 usual version, so i got no included instruments except simpler and stuff. it´s the only synth if im right i could use. maybe i´ll try, possible sure doin a track, rather would love to get in touch with logic. years ago i tried on an old mac machine.....
hope you´re doin some mad crazy stuff, coming back sooON:D
Maine Coon
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Posted : Apr 2, 2010 00:54
Mandari,
I think you are right about “peak vs. RMS”,
but I don’t think it relates to higher notes seeming louder than lower ones. I think this perception has more to do with our ears’ sensitivity to different frequencies. It’s just like yellow light will seem much brighter than blue of the same “physical” brightness.
RMS is exactly the same as the standard deviation in statistics, if the values average to zero (which in case of sound waves they will).
But I still don’t understand what Disco Hooligans meant by “-10RMS”. Maybe it’s like making your track’s loudness -10 dB on average (as opposed to -6 dB peak)?
Anyway, I’ll gladly take the challenge, since I’ve never seen anything but Ableton (and have not used even that).
So, I have a question for the veterans. When you just started (that is, you didn’t know a delay from a compressor – total zero experience), how long did it take you to learn enough for your first track? A year? Two? Half a year maybe?
you know my friend, i believe an real artist, a musician, call it what you want, will never ever tell you that he got his first track finished (not talking bout releases =D). an artist will be never satisfied with his work.
but to answer your question, im working on music with a DAW for quite few years now and i wouldn´t say i got anything i´m satisfied with. to me it´s a neverending evolutionary process. im seriously on it since i got my mac, so let´s say about 3-4 years.
it´s not about finishing your first track, it´s about to learn a lot and try around a lot, read a lot and make a lot of experience like that. one can be faster than the other. i read about people here tellin you about gettin a fat baseline during few days, another one will tell you he doesnt reach after four years hard work on it..... so it´s pretty different and depends on what you´re satisfied with.
i know quite few people dont havin any clue about music production but listening for lot of years with passion and they def. would finish a track in it´s basics, the composition part, the arrangement. i guess even far more better than most educated producers i know.....
getting kinda offtopic i´d say, just keep on working hard and focus on what you wanna reach, came there get the next target
cheerz
aaaah, sorry btw, i just choose that example with the higher note cause it´s exactly this. the level you "feel" (or your ear feels different) is the rms level but i´d guess nectarios will come back and give us some better explaination. sorry for french dood.
Nectarios
Martian Arts
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Posted : Apr 20, 2010 19:48
Quote:
On 2010-04-02 00:54, Maine Coon wrote:
But I still don’t understand what Disco Hooligans meant by “-10RMS”. Maybe it’s like making your track’s loudness -10 dB on average (as opposed to -6 dB peak)?
RMS = root mean square. There are two sort of dB values to consider when mastering a tune, the peak level (that is going to be 0, or right below) and the RMS level. The more you compress the final mix the louder the RMS level for the same peak level. The thing is the more you compress the track, the more apparent the side effects of limiting. Things sound louder, but at a cost.
Quote:
On 2010-04-02 00:54, Maine Coon wrote:
So, I have a question for the veterans. When you just started (that is, you didn’t know a delay from a compressor – total zero experience), how long did it take you to learn enough for your first track? A year? Two? Half a year maybe?
Thanks.
It was like 10 years when I first opened Cubase and I still have a lot to learn to make my first track that I am going to be 100%...or even 90% positive that it is a properly finished track...the more I learn, the more I realize that there is a lot more to teach my self...but that is the whole beauty of producing, if you ask me.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts
Maine Coon
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Posted : Apr 20, 2010 22:22
^ Thanks, I think I got the RMS idea now. I remember from physics (AC current) that RMS is amplitude divided by sqrt(2).
sqrt(2) corresponds to about 1.5 dB.
I am guessing this means that if you just have an even sound at the max (0 dB) it will measure -1.5 dB RMS. So, by mastering to -10 dB RMS, you leave ~8 dB breathing room between average and peak lowdness. Am I getting it right?
About finishing the first track. I understand: the more you know the more you realize how much more is there to learn. So, you are never done completely. That did not stop you from publishing your work, though
I decided my first project is going to be a remix (big thanks to Tsabeat). This way I can learn to sinc things, some basics of mixing and mastering and maybe adding some sounds of my own. Would that qualify for your DAW-only experiment?
Nectarios
Martian Arts
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Posted : Apr 21, 2010 12:01
Quote:
On 2010-04-20 22:22, Maine Coon wrote:
^ Thanks, I think I got the RMS idea now. I remember from physics (AC current) that RMS is amplitude divided by sqrt(2).
sqrt(2) corresponds to about 1.5 dB.
I am guessing this means that if you just have an even sound at the max (0 dB) it will measure -1.5 dB RMS. So, by mastering to -10 dB RMS, you leave ~8 dB breathing room between average and peak lowdness. Am I getting it right?
Not sure if its 8dB of headroom, but you got it right.
Quote:
On 2010-04-20 22:22, Maine Coon wrote:
About finishing the first track. I understand: the more you know the more you realize how much more is there to learn. So, you are never done completely. That did not stop you from publishing your work, though
It didn't because I would never release a track in my life if I've waited until I was 100% satisfied with it. I am not one of the people that wait and wait until they get everything right...even if it seemed I got everything right, as time goes by I listen to tunes I've done in the past and pick up on a lot of "mistakes", that is why the first album sounded nothing like the first Unison tunes I released with Pan Papason on Etnica Net 4-5 years ago, our second DH album sounds nothing like the first DH album and the 3rd DH album sounds nothing like the 2nd one.
At the time I decided to release all the tunes I have, so far, I was 90% happy with them, there is a substancial decreasing of that percentage of "happiness" as I learn more things, that is not to say I regret doing what I've done, I still like the rawness of it, with its engineering inadequencies and everything.
At the end of the day, I just enjoy making music and giving it away for free.
Quote:
On 2010-04-20 22:22, Maine Coon wrote:
I decided my first project is going to be a remix (big thanks to Tsabeat). This way I can learn to sinc things, some basics of mixing and mastering and maybe adding some sounds of my own. Would that qualify for your DAW-only experiment?
It depends, if the original tune was made entirely in one DAW, using native plug ins and you did a remix in that same DAW, using again only native plug ins (check the original post), then yes.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts
Maine Coon
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Posted : Apr 21, 2010 18:05
Quote:
On 2010-04-21 12:01, disco hooligans wrote:
At the end of the day, I just enjoy making music and giving it away for free.
Quote:
It depends, if the original tune was made entirely in one DAW, using native plug ins and you did a remix in that same DAW, using again only native plug ins (check the original post), then yes.
I see. Maybe not then. I am hoping to reverse-engineer most of the track and reconstruct it in Ableton the best I can. I already put kicks where they belong. Other percussive things and bass will follow. Leads will take some time because I don’t know how to make that sound yet – but hope to get it eventually. So, the core of the track can be re-written in Ableton from scratch. Seems like this would qualify here then, right?
I won’t be able to reproduce all that darkpsy vzik-bou-yonk-tsak-piu-krik-twonk stuff flying around, though.
It’s off-topic, but since we both are already here...
In the very beginning of “Clear Skies”, when the intro goes like “beats bob, beasta buh bob”, there is this effect sliding up and down. Sounds almost like some kind of FM sound. Was it another sound you layered, a flanger with changing delay settings or a high-resonance filter? I tried to reproduce it in Ableton but could not. A flanger was closest, though...
Nectarios
Martian Arts
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Posted : Apr 21, 2010 19:02
Quote:
On 2010-04-21 18:05, Maine Coon wrote:
I see. Maybe not then. I am hoping to reverse-engineer most of the track and reconstruct it in Ableton the best I can. I already put kicks where they belong. Other percussive things and bass will follow. Leads will take some time because I don’t know how to make that sound yet – but hope to get it eventually. So, the core of the track can be re-written in Ableton from scratch. Seems like this would qualify here then, right?
Yup.
Quote:
On 2010-04-21 18:05, Maine Coon wrote:
It’s off-topic, but since we both are already here...
In the very beginning of “Clear Skies”, when the intro goes like “beats bob, beasta buh bob”, there is this effect sliding up and down. Sounds almost like some kind of FM sound. Was it another sound you layered, a flanger with changing delay settings or a high-resonance filter? I tried to reproduce it in Ableton but could not. A flanger was closest, though...
That's two loops, one is and african conga loop in logic's bitcrusher, giving them tuned distorted harmonics and the other is a shuffling breakbeat, hi passed so its just the mids and tops of it, in a flanger doing that subtle flange effect in the background. I like playing around with beats from old motown and breakbeat records, automating the natural sound into a more robotized/electric/fucked up, one
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts
Maine Coon
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Posted : Apr 21, 2010 22:00
^ Thanks for the explanations. I could’ve sworn I heard people saying “beats bob, beasta buh bob” there. That’s’ quite amazing!
About the Tsabeat remix: is it still OK to use his single-sound samples in Ableton’s Sampler/Simpler? Like the famous kick, for example. I am talking only about musical things like percussion hits and base notes – not about tswik-tswak-zao stuff. Or everything has to be homemade?
Nectarios
Martian Arts
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Posted : Apr 22, 2010 11:04
I think you are on about the first tune of the album Clear Skies which is called Beat To The Box and starts off with someone beatboxing (I have a flanger on there too), rather than the beggining of the track Clear Skies.
Anyhow, the kick and bass are two of the most important things in a tune, do you really want to use someone else's (for this particular task it kinda sucks) instead of making your own? Check the same thread on psyforum, Speakafreka made a slamming kick and bass using Ableton synths and plug ins and he has his own psykick drum synth, that he refrained from using, for this task. That kind of behaviour sets the standard for this "exercise".
P.S. which famous kick are we talking about by the way? I've checked them tsabeat samples but I don't know which kick you are on about. http://soundcloud.com/martianarts
Maine Coon
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Posted : Apr 22, 2010 16:06
^ You're right about "Clear Skies" - I meant the very beginning of the album, not the track.
I think you are right about creating new sounds. I just thought I'd try not to enrage the original author. Half of the track's character will already be gone, since I will have to replace all the tzwik-tzwak-pao things with something of my own (probably quite lame). The least I could do is to keep the original beat and bass sounds. But you're right - those I can probably create in Operator anyway.
I mentioned his famous kicks because I've read a few times around here that his kicks are famous - that's all In this case, I was going to use the sample he provided in the remix bundle - don't know if it's famous or not.
Anyway, I got it - will keep the experiment pure.
Nectarios
Martian Arts
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Posted : Jul 1, 2010 17:13
Right then, after a while of working on the 3rd album and the new live set, I've come round to finishing the tune.
you feel different to the peak level of a signal, even if it´s the same. a higher note seems always to be higher in level compared to a lower one.
but i´d guess nectarios will come back and give us some better explaination. sorry for french dood.
