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"The flop industry" article by Dj Yaniv Tal discussion
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EYB
Noized
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 20:15
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What misleaded mind compares a non-existing illusionary amount of virtuall data to real existing materia like food??
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Yuli
Retired
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 20:20
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On 2009-04-09 20:09, Ascension wrote:
There's some unfortunateness to producing part time. You can be every bit as good as someone who does it full time, but sometimes your equipment can limit you. This isn't to say that you can't produce really good music, but when compared to someone else with similar talent and better studio equipment, it wouldn't sound as good (although good is subjective, there's plenty of well produced music out there that is unenjoyable).
However, imho, if you can only produce for half the time someone else can, just make half the quantity of music, but make it at the same quality.
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Sorry but I completely disagree. Good equipment can help, but has nothing to do with quality of the result.
Some superb classics of Goa trance such as Synergy or was it Cosmology were mixed on Mackie 1202, could you believe it? And some superb music from last years was done just on a PC, without any external hardware, pre amps or heavy duty EQ or compressors. I know more than a few artists that considered to be top notch at what they do and work with their PC. Rumor says that Trentemoller mixed with his headphones....
Equipment has nothing to do with the result. Its the head and the heart that matter in this case.
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 20:23
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On 2009-04-09 20:20, Yuli wrote:
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On 2009-04-09 20:09, Ascension wrote:
There's some unfortunateness to producing part time. You can be every bit as good as someone who does it full time, but sometimes your equipment can limit you. This isn't to say that you can't produce really good music, but when compared to someone else with similar talent and better studio equipment, it wouldn't sound as good (although good is subjective, there's plenty of well produced music out there that is unenjoyable).
However, imho, if you can only produce for half the time someone else can, just make half the quantity of music, but make it at the same quality.
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Sorry but I completely disagree. Good equipment can help, but has nothing to do with quality of the result.
Some superb classics of Goa trance such as Synergy or was it Cosmology were mixed on Mackie 1202, could you believe it? And some superb music from last years was done just on a PC, without any external hardware, pre amps or heavy duty EQ or compressors. I know more than a few artists that considered to be top notch at what they do and work with their PC. Rumor says that Trentemoller mixed with his headphones....
Equipment has nothing to do with the result. Its the head and the heart that matter in this case.
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That's why I said 2 producers of equal skill. Obviously in that case the one with better equipment will have the better sound.
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Yuli
Retired
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 20:23
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On 2009-04-09 20:15, EYB wrote:
What misleaded mind compares a non-existing illusionary amount of virtuall data to real existing materia like food??
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Heh since in the making of the "non-existing-illusionary-amount-of-virtual-data" quite a few hours of work was invested, there is no real difference between those hours and the hours of the Chef that cooked the meal.
I could compare of course to a programmer that works with that virtual data, and gets paid for that - is that a good comparison in your book?
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
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2849
Posted : Apr 9, 2009 20:35
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Absolutly, this makes sense 
Of course should the work be honored the right way!
But downloading is reality, and there is a need for new ways of honoring the coders, artists, etc.
Something like the "GEMA", but in a good way and for the internet.
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Spindrift
Spindrift
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 23:09
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On 2009-04-09 19:59, Yuli wrote:
Yes it's just like every other profession!!
Just in every other profession, no one comes to restaurant ( as an example ), orders a meal, eats it, and goes away without paying!
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There are two completely separate issues we are talking about here.
What I'm saying is that psytrance is not particularly viable commercially. If a chef makes the best dog stew in the world and tries to sell that in a restaurant in Sweden it's just not possible to earn money from that, because there are very few Chinese immigrants here and no-one else wants to eat it. If he still spends his time making stew without having anyone ordering it he has no right to demand to still get paid for his work.
What you are talking about now is file sharing and not paying artists for their work.
IMO that is not really a very relevant factor in this discussion because it was hardly commercially viable before file sharing either...even if psy/goa was somewhat popular in markets where the cost of a CD is reasonable and there where few artists to share the money generated from CD sales.
It was almost impossible to earn a decent living from releasing music on CD back then and it's almost impossible now...it doesn't really matter that much if you chances are 0.0003% or 0.0001%, it's still a lousy proposition.
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On 2009-04-09 19:59, Yuli wrote:
Music word of this Millenium, has to adjust to completely different ball game. And as much as it gives possibility to so many people express their art, and share it, it also "cheapens" the art forms, and makes it much more "disposable" rather than "timeless" as it used to be. |
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Sure, there has been an inflation in all kinds of information thanks to information technology.
But there is certainly a lot of bright sides to it as well, and I really thought it was a shame back in the hey days that it was pretty much only rich kids that had the possibility to start making music.
I think it's really great that almost anyone is able to setup a studio in which you can get really good results for almost no money at all.
It's not only about if more timeless classics is produced, producing music is also a way of enjoying it and that the results is not great tracks doesn't take away that enjoyment.
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On 2009-04-09 20:09, Ascension wrote:
However, imho, if you can only produce for half the time someone else can, just make half the quantity of music, but make it at the same quality. |
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From what I have seen it's not that easy. If you spend 8 hours a day in the studio year after year it's normal that the inspiration and love for the music starts to fade away and productivity is reduced.
And while you will get the technical bits nailed trough all the practice, and consequently have great production, it's very likely that the result will be a lot less creative.
It's of course individual, but I have seen that happen for a many producers.
Sure, one can very easily get to less time in the studio if one needs a full-time day job, but having to spend more than 40 hrs a week in the studio is not always only positive for your output.
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 10, 2009 00:49
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^ Exactly. It's more of a case of being able to spend as much time as you want producing vs only having limited time to do so.
Although, the person who can spend 40 hours a week in the studio might produce excellent music for 5 years, while the other person who can only spend 8 hours a week can produce mediocre music for 10 years. It's all based on the individual though as you said. There's some point that exists for each person where their skills and inspiration hit a maximum peak, but these don't always happen at the same time (they could have wonderful ideas, but no means to produce them or have the great skills to produce wonderful ideas, but no inspiration to do so).
I think this is where musicians and producers are really set apart. Those with a real understanding of the music have a greater potential to be good, and good for longer. Those who simply "produce" usually hit their peak and can't recover. http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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braininavat
Started Topics :
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233
Posted : Apr 10, 2009 03:28
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You missed my entire point hot shot...its a question of this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
I hate nostalgia although I tend to be pretty elitist and think most people are just kind of dumb...thats besides the point though..
There is simply no way around that the current system is a joke as far as the price artists get for their creations because the supply side is infinite and the price goes to zero no matter what you do in that equation..I know hippies hate economics but another part of economics is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequence
Which the unintended consquence of psy artists not being able to make it worth their time to actually sell music is that they have to charge too much for live performance at parties, in turn the promoters have to charge too much, in turn that means less people come to the events...
Being such, this then creates a feedback loop which means less people buy psytrance artists cds exactly because you aren't getting any new blood from the "curious" at parties...repeat, repeat, repeat...
Enough hippie feel good nonsense..these are basic economic questions that actually have obvious solutions. You have to limit the supply of psytrance, if you don't, its worthless. |
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braininavat
Started Topics :
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233
Posted : Apr 10, 2009 03:40
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On 2009-04-06 14:10, Spindrift wrote:
Of course he thought it was great with Cosmophilia almost having a monopoly on psytrance distribution and he could spend all his time around this music without any interruption of a regular job.
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This is another aspect..the whole distribution chain has become nothing but inneficient leaches..All they are doing is siphoning off profit away from the artists and marking things up to the consumer.
In the past this system made sense because it took the financial risk of a release off the back of the artist..
That risk, now more than ever needs to be thrown directly on the shoulders of the artist to limit supply.
You can't pony up the money to release something yourself, GOOD!!! The good stuff will still get released, the distribution mechanisms are right there..The good stuff will still take risk and in the end be better off exactly because things don't sufferer from the extreme over supply...
In that scenario though you still need to somehow crush piracy, which I just don't see how that is done without a shift back to vinyl.. |
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Kane
IsraTrance Junior Member
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23
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1772
Posted : Apr 10, 2009 04:23
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On 2009-04-09 20:09, Ascension wrote:
There's some unfortunateness to producing part time. You can be every bit as good as someone who does it full time, but sometimes your equipment can limit you. This isn't to say that you can't produce really good music, but when compared to someone else with similar talent and better studio equipment, it wouldn't sound as good (although good is subjective, there's plenty of well produced music out there that is unenjoyable).
However, imho, if you can only produce for half the time someone else can, just make half the quantity of music, but make it at the same quality.
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Yep..and to me it even seems a relatively large amount of people with $3000+ studios are making really boring or unoriginal music. Not in the "not my cup of tea" way either..more like someone's first time with FL studio.
I'm not saying this is the case with anywhere near the majority of these people, but it is important to earn your equipment.
There are plenty of people that could work for 5 years and not make a decent track in terms of production quality too..
edit: sry didn't read your last post ^ 
You believe in the users?
Yeah, sure. If I don't have a user, then who wrote me? |
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Basilisk
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 10, 2009 05:13
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On 2009-04-09 09:19, shahar wrote:
But Basilisk, what if your music isn't gig music? Is the only criteria for music is going to be its dancebility or its attraction beyond the music itself (cool visuals, belly dancers on shows, etc.)? And what about the fact that now most people have made the next step and are willing to gig for free just to be there and present their music? |
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No single model is going to work for everyone. In simple terms, one way of making free music work for the artist is to build a profile with it and score some paying gigs. Of course this isn't a helpful idea for artists uninterested in playing gigs, but I don't think "danceability" is the only criteria people are looking for. I saw Shulman play in Toronto and it certainly wasn't pumping dance floor material... but I'd certainly go out and see him live again. The real issue is with artists that don't wish to play out for one reason or another. And that's fine if you're Shpongle or someone... but it simply isn't realistic to expect that recorded works alone will provide for most artists these days. And hey, I don't make the rules--I'm just observing the consequences of large-scale changes in the way people listen to music.
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| This leads to only once place- shallow music, un-professionalism. You make your music for free, you give it for free, you perform for free- how long can you do that? At one point you start asking for money to make it possible for you to go on doing what you do- but can you compete with tons of others that are doing it for free? Almost impossible. This is just another cycle and one with bad consequences. |
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It doesn't have to lead there. I am constantly trying to bring some professionalism to free music in all that I do. I think free psytrance releases have come a very long way since the first Yggdrasil promo in 2005.
Try and appreciate the other side of the argument: that the commercial label apparatus is often dysfunctional. Again, I will refer you to the example of Jikkenteki--an artist reaching his potential free from the limitations and requirements of risk-averse labels interested only in proven formulas.
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| I really appreciate what you try to do and I totally agree with your observations (and Anderson's) about the situation. I just think that neither you nor Anderson are offering a model that will really work for musicians / artists. After all, you yourself are just becoming an aggregator. |
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I don't claim to have a model that will work for everyone; what I've been working on is just a viable alternative to the traditional distribution system. And it is still a work in progress.
Additionally, aggregation is nothing new for me. That's what I've been doing since 2005. And, in fact, I don't follow the wisdom of the long tail in all respects; I act as a "gatekeeper of taste" by picking and choosing the releases that I host and promote. The lack of quality control is one of the biggest challenges to thelegitimization of free music as a viable strategy for creative producers. That is one reason why I founded the Ektoplazm netlabel in 2008: I wanted set a standard that other netlabels might follow as well as release music I find compelling and support artists that I believe in.
Interesting that you should bring up Robert Rich's response to the 1000 True Fans concept; I recently drafted up a short piece on the subject. Trust me, I am the first to recognize that there are some real challenges to going free; we don't have all the answers yet. This summer I hope to make some real progress there--not only with the netlabel but also through workshops and panel discussions that I plan to do at several festivals this summer. Hopefully with some feedback and "mindsharing" we can collectively make some progress on these issues and provide for a better future for artists and listeners alike.
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Basilisk
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 10, 2009 05:24
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On 2009-04-09 11:12, Elad wrote:
basilisk - to be able to do what u do cost money that u must have from somewhere else i have to guess cause ektoplazm profit is coming from where ?
ill be stocked if you say those little google ads are the financial support? |
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I make about $1.40 a day from advertising. My monthly expenses are presently close to $200 for hosting alone. This doesn't include mastering fees or other release-related expenditures. Operating the Ektoplazm web site and netlabel cost me about $1,200 last year. CD sales at festivals helped offset some costs (particularly the production of the Ekoplex album which we eventually broke even on after selling about 160 copies--yes, with buyers having full knowledge that the whole thing could be downloaded for free). Donations also help a lot. They don't total up to a lot but it sure keeps me motivated when I receive an email that someone thought highly enough of my project to toss something in my virtual tip jar
As for my financial situation... would you believe that I am an unemployed university student? It's true! I'm in my second year studying ecology and evolutionary biology. No job. Perhaps ironically, I've been selling heaps of old vinyl to fund Ektoplazm's releases. Hosting comes out of my food bills every month. I'm lucky in that I saved up a bit while I was still working some years ago... and I was smart enough to stash it somewhere that was mostly untouched by the economic downturn. And so, you see, the money to keep the site running comes from here and there. I have to think about tuition and living expenses this coming year... but right now I am very happy to invest my time and money into Ektoplazm; it is an extremely rewarding project, one that connects me to people all around the world. And so... I will be working to make the site sustainable this summer, and I am cautiously optimistic that I will be successful. Just need to survive the coming exam period
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
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5306
Posted : Apr 10, 2009 13:43
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@ yuli - please explain how come there was instant jump in my sound level since i worked in non-acoustic room on tannoy monitors compare to the week after i made the acoustics and got dynaudios ???
i felt as well got response that its all x10 better , the bass energy is all diffrent , the sounds dont clash anymore , i never wanted them to but i was like painter in dark room with sunglasses on. the acoustic made the room brighter and the dyna's were like take off the sunny's. for sure the virus tb emulator sounds much better then vanguard , and to compare discovery to nord soundwise is joke , the visual works ok. non the less working with tdm or uad or even native instruments is great..
@ basilisk , so like tom cosm , its going in the right direction but not proove to top the old model of label-artist yet. i got all the stuff i said above after paid for album that will realese on cd.. and sure it will help for the free stuff too.
www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 10, 2009 15:14
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Yuli
Retired
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40
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1660
Posted : Apr 10, 2009 15:37
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On 2009-04-10 13:43, Elad wrote:
@ yuli - please explain how come there was instant jump in my sound level since i worked in non-acoustic room on tannoy monitors compare to the week after i made the acoustics and got dynaudios ???
i felt as well got response that its all x10 better , the bass energy is all diffrent , the sounds dont clash anymore , i never wanted them to but i was like painter in dark room with sunglasses on. the acoustic made the room brighter and the dyna's were like take off the sunny's. for sure the virus tb emulator sounds much better then vanguard , and to compare discovery to nord soundwise is joke , the visual works ok. non the less working with tdm or uad or even native instruments is great..
@ basilisk , so like tom cosm , its going in the right direction but not proove to top the old model of label-artist yet. i got all the stuff i said above after paid for album that will realese on cd.. and sure it will help for the free stuff too.
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Elad I am sure u had better results with better equipment, but that doesnt say u cant have good results with shit equipment.
As I said most of the amazing Goa tunes by Cosmosis were mixed on Mackie 1202, which is ridiculously small and uncomfi mixing desk, and I believe on Atari computer... Back to today, my good friend A Balter created some monstrous tracks u will hear about pretty soon using Samson speakers which are about the cheapest u can get, in a room where the back of it was one big wooden closet that humps your sound every single kick.
Its about the man and not the machine... but the machine can always help ofcourse 
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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