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The diffrence between a 320kbps mp3 and the wav?
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
356
Posted : May 25, 2006 08:47
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On 2006-05-23 21:48, Yuli wrote:
Trance music is by far has richer dynamic range than those music genres that were tested and for sure much more extensive on the low end - and that is where the major difference can be spotted as I previously mentioned
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While I usually agree with most of what Yuli says I'll have to disagree that trance has a "richer dynamic range" than classical or even most jazz. Classical music is generally "THE" test for all speakers, monitors and such mostly due to its huge dynamic range when recorded properly. That range is also why it's one of the hardest kinds of music to record properly. While I love trance, I think over all it (along with just about all electronic music in general) is actually one of the flattest forms of music out there when it comes to dynamics.
That said, you won't seen me writing my tracks in mp3 format anytime soon. 
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Yuli
Retired
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
1660
Posted : May 25, 2006 11:53
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Ok I must admit I used a wrong terminology here. What I meant to say with the dynamic range was actually more about the overall RMS levels of electronic music. Trance music is far more closer to 'Clip' level then classical u must agree about that. Which actually prooves me speaking total bullocks about 'Dynamic Range' since that fact only makes it super flat heh but my meaning was, that transferring this kind of music into MP3 format and after wards squashing it a little more @ the PA limiters is not the greatest thing to do, while a WAV maybe still got a chance to survive.
Xcuse me for the misleading use of terminology ye..
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
39
Posts :
988
Posted : May 25, 2006 12:28
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I have a question: when some frequencies are removed from the wav when a mp3 is created, and you pitch the mp3 recording up or down, do the holes in the frequency spectrum that are normally inaudible move to audible frequencies, revealing the inferiority of the mp3 ?
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
Started Topics :
61
Posts :
329
Posted : May 25, 2006 13:38
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We can each test the difference ourselves by for example downloading this track for free: http://www.cytopia.org/song.php?songNo=242&
The track is available in WAVE and mp3 320. The mp3 was rendered from that same wave, so other than encoding they are equal. Its tricky to doa blind test since you can see which file you play, buty get a friend to switch between playing the two of them, and see if you hear a difference, try different speakers, different distances from the speakers and different volumes, do you hear a difference?
Personally I first started hearing artifacts in mp3 encoding when i was making the previews for the cytopia tracks, they are in 80kbs and 32kbs, as you encode the file more certain sounds start to distort and sound crunchy... If you play the low preview on the cytopia ite of a track its 32kbs... then you can hear what mp3 encoding does.
32kbs streamed preview here: http://www.cytopia.org/downloadpreview.php?songNo=242&bitrate=32
80kbs preview here:
http://www.cytopia.org/downloadpreview.php?songNo=242&bitrate=80
Cytopia.org
Psychedelic & Progressive Downloads
Mp3 / WAV CD Quality Downloads
Full Streamed Previews |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : May 25, 2006 13:55
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Quote:
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On 2006-05-25 12:28, Boobytrip wrote:
I have a question: when some frequencies are removed from the wav when a mp3 is created, and you pitch the mp3 recording up or down, do the holes in the frequency spectrum that are normally inaudible move to audible frequencies, revealing the inferiority of the mp3 ?
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As I understand it, MP3 encoding doesn't 'remove frequencies' as such. I couldn't give you an accurate description of what it does do but there's probably one on this thread somewhere.
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : May 25, 2006 14:38
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Quote:
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On 2006-05-25 12:28, Boobytrip wrote:
I have a question: when some frequencies are removed from the wav when a mp3 is created, and you pitch the mp3 recording up or down, do the holes in the frequency spectrum that are normally inaudible move to audible frequencies, revealing the inferiority of the mp3 ?
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It isn't about absolute frequencies or levels but rather about relationships between sounds. For instance, our brain discards (masks) a soft sound right before or after a loud sound.
MP3 encoding uses this knowledge to discard some of the data in a wave file. If there is a very loud sound followed by a soft sound, the soft sound gets encoded with very little data (or rather gets replaced by quantization noise) but we can not perceive that due to how our brain analyzes incoming signals.
Unless extreme pitching up or down is applied (something I would argue isn't a very good thing), the relationship between levels and frequencies is not affected.
UnderTow |
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Adrenal Mode
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
308
Posted : May 25, 2006 16:05
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try this:
1. take Wav file and opan it in sound forge
2. put limiter on it (hard limit), let it look like square shape
3.save it as mp320 and then look at the wavform
my opinion:
whan you save wav file as mp3 its just take the wav and squeze/compress it to a different digital format, its cuting the freq & changing the wavform, and that not good.
lets say you want to play them on a PA system, the PA system will add even more compression to them, so the mp3 will be even more compressed, and thats not good, right.
WAV is THE format for Producing,Mastering,djing and so on, so why even think about mp3 whan you have WAV!!!
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gill
Melorix
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
628
Posted : May 25, 2006 17:27
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Quote:
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On 2006-05-25 16:05, Adrenal Mode wrote:
try this:
1. take Wav file and opan it in sound forge
2. put limiter on it (hard limit), let it look like square shape
3.save it as mp320 and then look at the wavform
my opinion:
whan you save wav file as mp3 its just take the wav and squeze/compress it to a different digital format, its cuting the freq & changing the wavform, and that not good.
lets say you want to play them on a PA system, the PA system will add even more compression to them, so the mp3 will be even more compressed, and thats not good, right.
WAV is THE format for Producing,Mastering,djing and so on, so why even think about mp3 whan you have WAV!!!
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cool!
And you can all hear that thru your ears?
http://trishula-records.com/artists-pages/melorix.html |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : May 25, 2006 17:31
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On 2006-05-25 17:27, gill wrote:
cool!
And you can all hear that thru your ears?
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He listens with his eyes. That is a talent I havn't developed yet. 
UnderTow |
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gill
Melorix
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
628
Posted : May 27, 2006 02:36
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Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
39
Posts :
988
Posted : May 28, 2006 18:29
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Quote:
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On 2006-05-25 14:38, UnderTow wrote:
Quote:
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On 2006-05-25 12:28, Boobytrip wrote:
I have a question: when some frequencies are removed from the wav when a mp3 is created, and you pitch the mp3 recording up or down, do the holes in the frequency spectrum that are normally inaudible move to audible frequencies, revealing the inferiority of the mp3 ?
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It isn't about absolute frequencies or levels but rather about relationships between sounds. For instance, our brain discards (masks) a soft sound right before or after a loud sound.
MP3 encoding uses this knowledge to discard some of the data in a wave file. If there is a very loud sound followed by a soft sound, the soft sound gets encoded with very little data (or rather gets replaced by quantization noise) but we can not perceive that due to how our brain analyzes incoming signals.
Unless extreme pitching up or down is applied (something I would argue isn't a very good thing), the relationship between levels and frequencies is not affected.
UnderTow
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M'kay, thanks ! But then i have another question: I was playing back to back at a party last weekend and the other guy played some tracks from cd's with burned mp3's. I noticed that he had to boost the input-gain on the mixer on all mp3 tracks. So what's happening: does the encoding-decoding process turn down the dynamic range of the original recording ?
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Hodi
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
114
Posts :
1212
Posted : May 29, 2006 20:08
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you know, it's all talking around here, but i want to take the SAME track
rip it in 320kbps mp3
and in wav
and ask someone which one is wav and which one is mp3
and test it on like 30 tracks
if u get 100% success
then it's a proof!
u can find "Anything U Want" using the search... |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : May 29, 2006 20:40
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Quote:
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On 2006-05-28 18:29, Boobytrip wrote:
So what's happening: does the encoding-decoding process turn down the dynamic range of the original recording ?
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No but who knows what that person did ... There are many ways to do things in the wrong way and have inadequat results ... Maybe the tracks were less loud to start with even before MP3 encoding and decoding ...
It is impossible to say exactly why the other DJ had to boost the levels...
UnderTow |
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koalakube
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
48
Posts :
437
Posted : May 29, 2006 21:33
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On 2006-05-25 11:53, Yuli wrote:
Ok I must admit I used a wrong terminology here. What I meant to say with the dynamic range was actually more about the overall RMS levels of electronic music. Trance music is far more closer to 'Clip' level then classical u must agree about that.
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No Yuli,you are wrong on this issue.
Im (Following the conversation and i dont have much to say than repeating what others here already have apart from.....)
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solconnection
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
46
Posted : May 30, 2006 03:10
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I play alot of tracks you can only get on vinyl or as digital mp3 pay per downloads...i dont use vinyl so i stick to the mp3's.
i was playing a set a little while ago approximately 50% mp3 50% cd.. every now and then my friend would come up and ask if the track i was playing was an mp3. Funnily enough it was a cd playing every time.
not a strick objective test by any means, but a casual, in the moment, real world test of the ears of your avg dj (who is generally more anal than your average punter).
bring on the convenience of mp3.
have a nice day
-Dan |
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