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The diffrence between a 320kbps mp3 and the wav?
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UnderTow
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Posted : May 23, 2006 02:10
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On 2006-05-22 22:55, Yuli wrote:
Yes u have given a test disregarding the fact that tracks differ one from the other in terms of frequencies and dynamics, which may lead to different results vs the MP3
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I never said one should only try with a single sample. It would, of course, be more interesting with different types of music and different types of mixes.
So for instance a classical recording, a solo piano, a solo violin, a minimalstic accoustic recording, voice, rock, jazz, psytrance, death metal, pop, big band etc ... No compression, light compression, radio hypercompression/limiting etc.
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If I can tell 1 out of 10 times doesnt mean statistically that I am guessing of course -
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It depends exactly what you mean. If you make guesses and only guess right 1/10 then yes, if you can guess it right every time on 1/10 samples that is different.
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u r using in the same way u use the 'Placebo' thing...
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My point about placebo, is that unless the test is performed in a certain way, the test isn't conclusive. In other words if you listen to a wave and an mp3 of that wave and you know what you are listening to and then say you can hear a difference, it could well be the placebo effect at work.
Unfortunately, in general, people don't like to admit to themsleves (or others) that their mind can be so easily influenced in this way.
Only when one is directly confronted with the falibity of one's mind and perception, as in a psychological experiment for instance, does one truely realise how subjective everything is.
UnderTow |
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
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Posted : May 23, 2006 15:32
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The best objective measure would be a blind test, using more than just a few people, in one studio or place, in which each participant would hear 5 tracks, each in mp3 256kbs, 320kbs and uncompressed WAVE. The participant is asked to judge the quality of each track on a scale of 1 - 10. You can make variations on the setup...
Then a data anlysis can show to what extend people perceive mp3 or wave to sound better. And you can even use the analysis to see if musicians were more able than non musicians to jusge WAVE as better than mp3.The larger the population of participants the more you can generalize the result to the whole.
I think this test has been done before, but i cannot find the webpage for the moment, when i do i will post it.
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
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329
Posted : May 23, 2006 15:43
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UnderTow
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Posted : May 23, 2006 16:32
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Interesting article. Thanks for the link.
This confirms the findings of other such tests. The conclusion being that people can not reliably distinguish 256 Kbps MP3s from CDs.
UnderTow |
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Yuli
Retired
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Posted : May 23, 2006 21:48
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On 2006-05-23 16:32, UnderTow wrote:
Interesting article. Thanks for the link.
This confirms the findings of other such tests. The conclusion being that people can not reliably distinguish 256 Kbps MP3s from CDs.
UnderTow
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Actually the conclusions are far from what u have written. In that particular test the music that was tested is mostly Classical and Jazz. If u would ask me what do I use my MP3 walkman for I would tell u I use it for Rock, Blues, Classical, Ethnic and Jazz. Except for part of rockish tunes, it is fairly impossible to catch with the differences between MP3 and WAV.
I would also add to that the fact that was also told by the organizers of this 'test' that ppl were tested in completely new environment etc...
Trance music is by far has richer dynamic range than those music genres that were tested and for sure much more extensive on the low end - and that is where the major difference can be spotted as I previously mentioned
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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UnderTow
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Posted : May 23, 2006 22:50
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On 2006-05-23 21:48, Yuli wrote:
Actually the conclusions are far from what u have written.
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Far from? To me "far from" would be if the conclusion of that test was that people _could_ differentiate but they could _not_.
Anyway, I said it confirmed other such tests. This is not the only one with this conclusion. Actually, so far, every one I have seen has this conclusion.
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If u would ask me what do I use my MP3 walkman for I would tell u I use it for Rock, Blues, Classical, Ethnic and Jazz.
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Are you saying you judge by listening to your MP3 walkman? Are you serious? Sorry but you have just lost all credibility in this discussion.
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I would also add to that the fact that was also told by the organizers of this 'test' that ppl were tested in completely new environment etc...
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Remember what this discussion was about: Playing 320 Kbps MP3s on party PAs. Not listening at home on your own HiFi or anything like that. It seems you lost the plot somewhere along the line ...
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Trance music is by far has richer dynamic range than those music genres that were tested
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You obviously have no idea what the term "dynamic range" means.
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and for sure much more extensive on the low end - and that is where the major difference can be spotted as I previously mentioned
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Judging by your MP3 player? Get real man.
UnderTow |
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TopDown
Started Topics :
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Posted : May 24, 2006 09:00
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On 2006-05-22 04:02, UnderTow wrote:
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On 2006-05-21 22:18, TopDown wrote:
To make this test even more precise you don't need to tell which source is better, but only try to spot a difference. In theory we know wave should be better, so only recognising as same/other source will do.
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No, some people might think the MP3 sounds better. 
...
UnderTow
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Well, some other people get horny from womens shoes, so what ? |
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Raoul V
IsraTrance Junior Member
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583
Posted : May 24, 2006 09:06
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ok so i read thru this thread, very interesting..
If someone would like to put up a few samples for us all to test that would be great!!
Is the way something mixed gonna affect the conversion??
eg certain styles of music are mixed in a certain way..
like for eg, swing music has the bass mixed far in the back while say trance has the kik bass mixed more up front, where as in hip hop its right up in front of ur face...
when u convert something to mp3 is the way it is mixed gonna make a diff??
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Soth_MfK
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 24, 2006 12:14
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ok i read through the post and i think the more serious question is:
why do you have mp3? or ... from where ? 
obviously someone wants to know if he/she can play with downloaded mp3 without the audience noticing. well apart from being a thief, i've come to the conclusion, that mp3 feels different on a good PA, it's just not as kicking as an original cd.
b00m,
soth |
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Yuli
Retired
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Posted : May 24, 2006 13:33
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@ Undertow
Heh man u know I write here stuff and u totally take it out of context every single time - no wonder this debate goes 7 pages long.
Ofcourse I dont judge the quality of music I hear by listening to it thru MP3 player ( altho if u listen with descent headphones, u would be surprised the quality u might get ) I would say it would be better if u would stick to facts instead just going around the bush and picking up to little things - what do u say?
Sorry to say it again but frequency range of electronic music is BY FAR larger than frequency range of any other acoustic type and so its dynamics ( I wouldnt say it is for the better actually, since in many times it doesnt leave space between the sounds, and just far too aggressive, but that is the fact )
There is a HUGE difference between sitting in someone elses room and testing MP3 from
WAV to doing that test on a big rig in Open Air ( in a club it will be fairly impossible )
And well man it is alright to have differences in opinions, no need to get personal if I dont agree with your wisdom, heh. U have fun with MP3 and I have my fun with WAV - everybody happy
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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Yuli
Retired
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Posted : May 24, 2006 13:38
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oooops and I would say that again
Somewhere before on the 2nd or 3d page some smart dude ( was it u ? ) claimed that ofcourse I cant export my projects as MP3 files since MP3 format is not for mastering, it would be ruined if it is mastered.
My dear friend on most of big rigs that I have played on, hideous compressors / EQs and limiters are applied to the music played with very little concern about the music itself - mostly it is dun to protect the rig from damage. If I am not mistaken this is fairly similar to what happens to sound when it goes thru mastering procedure - correct me if I am wrong....
Gday
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
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Posted : May 24, 2006 14:23
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On 2006-05-24 13:33, Yuli wrote:
Ofcourse I dont judge the quality of music I hear by listening to it thru MP3 player.
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Good but then I have no idea why you brought that up.
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I would say it would be better if u would stick to facts instead just going around the bush and picking up to little things - what do u say?
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Well they are things you write. If they are irrelevant, why bring them up?
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Sorry to say it again but frequency range of electronic music is BY FAR larger than frequency range of any other acoustic type and so its dynamics
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The end of your sentence is a bit strange so I might be misundertanding you but frequency response has nothing to do with dynamic range. Psytrance has a much smaller dynamic range than most jazz or classical recordings.
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There is a HUGE difference between sitting in someone elses room and testing MP3 from
WAV to doing that test on a big rig in Open Air ( in a club it will be fairly impossible ) |
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Well there is an experiment I have performed with many guest artist at our parties: When they come in for the sound check, I will play them an MP3, often of their own music and ask them what they think of the sound system. They are usually seriously impressed. The club we use has spent 100.000 euro on the sound system and the room is accousticaly treated. This isn't quite the same thing as outdoor sound but still, it isn't the typical club sound either.
I know this experiment is childish and kind of silly but I think it is funny to see the look on their face when I tell them. Lol.
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And well man it is alright to have differences in opinions, no need to get personal if I dont agree with your wisdom, heh. U have fun with MP3 and I have my fun with WAV - everybody happy
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Sorry for getting personal. I'm seriously pissed right now as the OS disk in my DAW seems to have crashed and it won't boot. Of course that is absolutely no excuse for venting my frustrations on you. Please accept my apologies.
UnderTow |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : May 24, 2006 14:29
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On 2006-05-24 13:38, Yuli wrote:
My dear friend on most of big rigs that I have played on, hideous compressors / EQs and limiters are applied to the music played with very little concern about the music itself - mostly it is dun to protect the rig from damage. If I am not mistaken this is fairly similar to what happens to sound when it goes thru mastering procedure - correct me if I am wrong....
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This is a very valid point as changing the dynamics of the music most probably affects the frequency and level masking tables of MP3 encoding.
I would just say that the compressors and limiters probably affect the sound more and this again brings up the point that DJs really need to be carefull with their levels and not keep pushing everything into the red.
Of course I understand that not everyone is as lucky to have a seriously overpowered PA system to play on and thus no need to push the limiters (and someone that keeps an ear and an eye open to make sure no DJs are clipping or overdriving anyting).
UnderTow
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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Posted : May 24, 2006 17:45
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Re. processing an MP3:
Limiters and compressors used in club sound systems are placed in the analog signal path, after the MP3 has been decoded to analog audio. At this point there is no difference between audio coming off an MP3 and a WAV (other than - perhaps the absolute quality of the audio  ). I might be wrong, but to me the main difference between this and a mastering situation is that a mastered track can be expected to be encoded to MP3 at some point, whereas the audio being played out of a sound-system will not, and it is the re-encoding to MP3 that will heinously affect the quality of a previously-processed MP3, as the encoding will attempt to mask again those sonic features compressed by the original encoding.
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Spindrift
Spindrift
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Posted : May 24, 2006 18:44
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The mp3 audio signal will be different also after decoding, and I think it's a valid argument that if you push the limiter into use on a PA and the EQ'ing could make it easier to tell a wav and mp3 apart.
The encoding will remove audio that would be masked by other parts of the signal and if you mess with the dynamics and spectral balance of the track what would be masked or not might change.
Pushing the limiter into use on a PA would be a bad idea anyway and it should really only be there as a precaution.
Since mastered material already gone thru a limiter, having it processed by yet another limiter will mess up also a wav.
The EQ'ing in the rack of the PA should ideally be set to give a resonably flat response and the EQ on the mixer should not need to extreme adjustments if it's well produced/mastered material.
I think that the difference would as hard to spot on a well set up PA compared to a set of nautilus speakers, but with less than ideal setup/material where you actually need to do mastering as you play there would maybe be a discernable difference if you really tried to listen for it.
But if you care about sound quality it would probably make more difference what cable you connected you player to the mixer with than if you play mp3 or not.
Not to mention what converters you have and how the PA is set up.
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