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the cosmic octave and mathematics
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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1931
Posted : Jun 25, 2009 21:53:10
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Hello people,
long time no see.
i hope the isratrance crew will give me the chance to finish this discussion and i am very thankful for this chance ( i noticed that in some other networks for trance, it is too much to ask for this chance).
well, okey, you see, the topic is here again the so called cosmic octave.
we have had it a few times especially in the other topic about 432 hz so i am not going to repeat everything - just the basic links.
http://planetware.de/octave/index.html
this is the basics of the theory.
http://www.timewavezero-productions.com/tv/index.php?id=118&no_cache=1
this is my website with a video interview that i made with akasha project about the cosmic octave and the quantum music ( but it is only in german, i am sorry for that, i hope i am allowed to post it here)
http://planetware.de/download/Stimmdaten.pdf
these are the planet tones
now. dear forum users, i would like to ask you first of all, dont take it seriously, if you dont want to. i really hope to have a discussion on the facts and not on off topics.
it is important to me, because i am trying to make a documentary on this issue. and i need answers. i dont know everything about making music.
now, i just come from a disastrous discussion in goabase about the octave again. they are telling me that every octave and every interval is the same in every culture. ( i was explaining about the pentatonics and orheus).
now my asking on you: please leave the personal offending for private messages or whatever. i am VERY INTERESTED in the subject. and i know that you know more about making music than i do.
my questions.
-is it something typical about the trance scene that they dont know that the intervals like terz and whatever , differ from one another in different music theories? so a terz is not always a terz?
- what do you generally think about the old alchemical way to use mathematical harmonies in order to make music that can heal?
- how many of you, what percentage would be ready to change the 440 hz into 432 and follow the old pythagorean harmonies? like what is the general situation? no one cares about it right?
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daark
IsraTrance Full Member
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1397
Posted : Jun 25, 2009 22:46
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there is no major difference sense youre brain sends you that euphoria through nerves it doesnt matter what tuning too get the ecstazy 440 hertz is doing just fine and they already using this tuning for musical healing if you ask me you just need to fuck the brain correctly and the healing happens:)
some of the synths i am using are not even tuned to 440 and sync perfectly with the ones that are
it is not about that some kind of woohoooo scream can give you healing energies
i try too tune it on the feeling and intuition
it is like there are different shades of blue there is no right shade of blue |
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daark
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
58
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1397
Posted : Jun 25, 2009 22:53
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but why not getting those forks and check it out??? |
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
1931
Posted : Jun 25, 2009 22:54
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oh i forgot to mention that i am basicly interested in the discussion about the mathematics behind it. and the music itself. not so much in the debate about fucked up brains. mine is fucked up. and so what:). i mean it's perfectly okey. sure there is no right side of the blue:). no one on this world has the ultimative answers anyway. but i noticed the effect of cymatica
http://www.cymaticsource.com/
and i have noticed the meaning of the flower of life...
so anyway, i hope you apologise my english too, because it is not always easy to be precize on music theory in lots of other languages....i am interested in the mathematics in the music as a harmonical basic of the world view that we create in our own minds. fucked up brains create a lot of alternatives you know
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
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1931
Posted : Jun 25, 2009 22:55
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On 2009-06-25 22:53, daark wrote:
but why not getting those forks and check it out???
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sure my dear, why not?
why not is my favourite quote.
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daark
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
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1397
Posted : Jun 25, 2009 22:58
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so you can get into mathematics of painting and figure the right blue  also colours have frequencies and i am not sure that frequencies of planets and tones are on same scale(thats new for me) but colors are:) so if you want i can get you the corect frequencie of blu and you can tell if it opens you throat chakra:) |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
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779
Posted : Jun 25, 2009 23:05
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to answer your questions - and I must confess that I don't see any relevance to the whole debate, but, I'm not trying to be personally offensive.
Your first question - No, this understanding is not typical to the trance scene - the current 'terz' is hardwired into how music theory is taught in the country where I am (at least) across the board.
2) I generally think, thats a leading question, show me anything good enough to be part of a rigorous scientific paper, and then I will consider it 
3) My actual piano - which determines how I tune all the other instruments in my house, and furthermore the standard behaviour of VST instruments is 440 - I am actively opposed to tuning in the way you mention, as I would have to buy two upright pianos and a grand to fulfill a criteria which I have yet to see any discernable or scientific (careful what you call scientific - opinion doesn't qualify) benefit from. Further to my own selfish issues, I imagine many woodwind and brass instrument players would have considerable difficulty in playing 432, which would neccesitate them all purchasing new instruments. Even if they could tune to 432, the tone of the instrument itself would be substantially modified. Having played in a cathedral with an orchestra and organ where the organ was tuned to 444 - the entire orchestra sounded much brighter (not good brighter, more harsh and brittle), and yes, tuning and the instruments actual physical ability to hold tuning was a total whore any keyed instrument such as a flute, oboe, clarinet had major problems - and that is only 50% of difference in going 432! .
http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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-=Mandari=-
Mandari
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
655
Posted : Jun 25, 2009 23:21
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well, nice.... so here we are again =D
first. i think most people working professionel out there are working on mathematical based harmonies, maybe even without knowing they work on natural based mathematics, which can be applied on many different things and structures in micro or macro cosm. but you have to learn that many will do without the interest in that spiritual mind behind. at the end u can look at it like mathematics or like spiritual information. but most people will decide for one side without expecting that its both.
secondly to the other question, for these cases there are manymany alternative practitioners out there tuning their soundbowls for exactly that. an artist in most cases has no function as a doctor. he/she is an artist.
anyway its not only the music and its tuning healing the soul of a human being. its itself and the mind behind. transcendence and active meditation is what the mind leads to heal the human body and give or take energy. what u mean is a completely other case, its like akustical accupuncture. but its not needed to tune your whole music to any healing frequency, cause any harmonic music will work the same. and as long people know about basic harmonies in music and stuff like circle of fifths and work with it, its not neccessary tuning tracks to these frequencies. the transcendental conscious ie while we dance will recharge the soul and the concerned parts of the aural body. the difference to a soundbowl or a tuned scale/tone whatever is simply that it works at the same time on the whole body while a soundbowl is working on exactly one point or one organ. this is because most people forgot how to lead the energy rightways through their body, otherwise sure it would be possible to concentrate the energy to one decided point and get the same result as with a soundbowl.......and sure this way we could keep the money for the alternative practitioners for nice new synth =D
by the way one sound would be senseless, cause any sound in the song and any interval has to be tuned the same or in harmonics based on that freq....
so everything would not work anymore if just the bpm is changed by the dj only for 1 or 3 bpm.....
dont get me wrong, but any profession out there is working on your so called alchemical based mathematics long time ago people like kepler developed and hell yeah, cousto was the greatest by calculating all that stuff, so that we can now apply this to our music IF WE WANT!!!
i did few tracks in freq. of the plathonic year, and i can tell you no one cares a fu+#ing shit about which freq. or tone you´re working on
and third i´m sure as many others not ready to change my global tuning to 432, as its completely wrong if you´re not working on this freq. i use to work with high bpm.
anyway you cant say no one cares, cause no one has to care its not needed. all people will work that way, without even recognizing. and there´s nothing more important for an artist than what fits his/her ears, what comes from your soul. no tuning to whatever. sure there are people out there on hunt for the perfect pitch, and the answer is between here. but its mathematics for an artist. no spiritual shabobooooh.
and dont get me wrong on this, im one of gr8test shabbobooo´s here i think and maybe one of the only few knowing about the truth of all that stuff. but the way you come over here and say no one cares about is again not that efficient like last time i think.
maybe u have to think about the differences from shamanics to an artist. and this is no shaman based forum, its artist based =D so if u would question8 as an artist, you maybe would get the answer.... but i think you´re not interested in any answer, or i can still not get the question. ..... *help*
and pls no discussion about my text here, i had my own discussion with barnim, thanks here for the help m8 and i use tuning calculators and that stuff daily. but not everyone is interested in doin cosmic psygabba or that stuff. had a look at the tuning chart? pretty less bpm´s to work with.
anyway all info on planetware and sites like that was pretty helpful for me few time ago. but this whole stuff is something special u can not apply to all other artists here and i´m myself interested in stuff like shiatsu where this is maybe more efficient
*°oO(boOM)Oo°*
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
1931
Posted : Jun 26, 2009 00:43
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but its not needed to tune your whole music to any healing frequency, cause any harmonic music will work the same.
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yes, first of all, thanks for your post, it was a pleasure to read:)
many insightful thoughts in there.
but my logic fails only at the end of this sentence. do you believe that any harmonic music will do the same?
as any natural form of material substance, also the frequency is inclined to follow the golden means. it works as the most effective proportion to induce harmonics on a wider level...
well it is nice to see you here and to read that you are one of the few who have made their experience with that.
i was going to put a few links about cymatics and the phenomena of sound structures but i thought that i will ask you first about this one
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| dont get me wrong, but any profession out there is working on your so called alchemical based mathematics long time ago people like kepler developed |
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what do you mean with that my dear ? are you sure that people are following the theories of kepler in their full form...?
i dont think that all professions are based on alchemical mathematics. even only because of the golden means.
as we see in the phenomena of cymatics:
here you can see some images and a video http://www.cymatics.org/
here wikipedia about cymatics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cymatics
sound vibrates in lots of different harmonical structures. and it is essential which one you choose.
you see, i dont say that it is the better one. i say it is a different one. and if it is really alchemical according to the basics of sacred geometry , and tuned with this proportion, then it induces a harmonical structure in our bodies and brain, which might probably be quite more effective in terms of feeling better and being in tune with the macrocosm outside of us. cause you know, kepler said quite a lot of things about how the space in the macrocosm is built...
ou yes, of course i dont believe that no one cares here about it. just provoking to come faster to what i want. otherwise i would not ask here. but you know, i am also only looking for an answer so i am a seeker and not someone who wants to give the ultimate answer. and i am sure that even the scientifical prove about the phenomena would not be enough if people dont want to see that geometry itself is sacred. ( and btw i feel so uncool to say this in isratrance but i have to mention the proportions of the issue) is it possible that the golden mean series and the right mathematical proportion can induce a more effective way of experiencing music??? or is it all same???
btw also without science one can try and experiment with this one:
http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/homemade_cymatics_display.htm
and then notice structures of the sound. vibrating. full harmonics.
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Jun 26, 2009 01:16
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and i am sure that even the scientifical prove about the phenomena would not be enough if people dont want to see that geometry itself is sacred.
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Its enough for me. Do you have any?
Not one double blind test on these so called 'healing' frequencies? Why isn't enough to leave it as in interesting phenomena without superimposing extra unwarranted elements?
It actually prevents serious conversation on the issue for me.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
1931
Posted : Jun 26, 2009 01:22
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http://www.soundhealingresource.com/pdf/Caduceus%20article.pdf?nmx=3_0
it is a pdf and it is only the first window next to the isratrance window. i mean, there are millions of it. but it is not scientifical enough for you may be?:) well, what is it that you wanted to see in the post above:
Quote:
| 2) I generally think, thats a leading question, show me anything good enough to be part of a rigorous scientific paper, and then I will consider it |
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just tell me the direction of the facts you want to see. i cant know your preferences by this simple wish... what do you need: physics of sound? numbers? astronomy? and what do i need to prove at all??:)
i just want to know if people try to experiment with this and if it is made according to fibonacci and other simple mathematical or geometrical basics. the one- or more dimensional model of the smallest particles in the universe of science are also simple numbers.
lets say it like that. i am only interested to know what is exactly the golden means in the music. because i have a wide variety of possible alternatives and theories....
anyone an idea?:)
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
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779
Posted : Jun 26, 2009 01:27
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Sorry, that is an advertising brochure, not a peer reviewed paper. And it is exactly that sort of quackery that will really, really rile anyone who is interested in a more serious discussion of the subject, but needs to see a bit of proper proof to take the more tangental claims seriously, as surely, you must know? .
http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
1931
Posted : Jun 26, 2009 01:45
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it would be so much nicer of you if you would just answer my question what kind of scientifical prove you would like to see so that i can start to look at all. you know:)
i posted the first accident link in my explorer:).
btw here is another thing about phi and the frequences....
the problem is that it looks totally different in the pentatonic model of sound....
can anyone answer the question what is the percentage of people who use pentatonics in trance? has anyone an idea about it?? i cant visualise it very well.
http://goldennumber.net/music.htm
the number five. i am still looking for information about the orheus view of sound. why five and what are the intervals then. how do we have to pitch them - what are the pitch differences?
and you will say, why is this so important?
well it is not my friend, you do it or you leave it:)
have fun
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Jun 26, 2009 01:52
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I want to see peer reviewed evidence that the use of pentatonics within music have bearing on someone's well being on a physical level.
I am not saying it is impossible - It just isn't something I am prepared to take 'on faith'.
And you are right, I don't think it is important - music can sound good with or without it
I am not denouncing the idea, I am merely saying that I have doubts about veracity which I would like to be disproved.
As to psy-trance that is written specifically with this is mind, I would expect the percentage written to be extremely small - however, I would also expect this percentage to be higher than many other fields of music - however, this is pure supposition on my part.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
1931
Posted : Jun 26, 2009 07:58
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well lets start first with a simple evidence and completed research about the fact that the human cells can sing in healthy and unhealthy frequencies:
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| University of California at Los Angeles nanotechnologist Jim Gimzewski is pioneering a new science he calls sonocytology, the study of cell sounds. His first experiments began with yeast cells, using a nanotechnology tool called an atomic force microscope to detect sound-generating vibrations and then using a computer to enhance the volume. The yeast cells were heard to produce harmonics, around 1,000 cps. In musical terms, they were "singing" in the range of C-sharp to D above middle C. Cellular harmonics were also affected by temperature, speeding them up or slowing them down, genetic mutations were found to make a slightly different sound than normal cells. Dead cells emitted a low rumbling like radio static. Distinguishing between the sound signatures of healthy and diseased cells may be a part of the medicine of the future. |
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http://www.massagetherapy.com/articles/index.php/article_id/1009/Healing-With-Sound-Part-I
http://www.wisdomofsound.com/sound-healing2/
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| -From an energetic standpoint, the human body, when weakened or shifted from equilibrium, oscillates at a different and less harmonious frequency than when healthy. This abnormal frequency reflects a general state of cellular energetic imbalance within the physical body. When a weakened individual is unable to shift their energetic mode to the needed frequency a certain amount of subtle energetic help may be needed. When supplied with a dose of the needed energetic frequency, it allows the cellular bioenergetic systems to resonate in the proper vibrational mode, thereby throwing off the toxicities of the illness. |
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http://www.harmonyera.com/1.2.research.htm
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| "Royal Raymond Rife, a researcher in San Diego in the early part of the 20th century, sucessfully eliminated cancer and other diseases using an electronic device he invented that emitted specific frequencies..." |
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if you see the point in the statements above , then we can go further into the discussion why does it make a difference to use the pentatonic scale.
but anyway i dont need to pursade you , you know. it is not why i am here.
i am here to hear what is the golden means in the music.
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