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Thank god this isn't legal anymore..
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
725
Posted : Dec 28, 2006 20:39
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And we would probably advance more in pharmacology if instead of testing everything with animals we tested everything directly with humans. So how come the importance of this research does not outweight the horror of using human individuals for testing?
I guess because we can instead use animals. But animals also suffer, yeah regardless of whether the animal is endangered or not. So why is human suffering more important than animal suffering even if it can be an equally painful experience for both living beings?
I disagree about human life been of more importance than an animals life, I just don't see the evidence to support that. Now obviously humans care more about humans than they care about animals, maybe that is what you meant. However it does not mean we have the right to disregard all other life different to ours and treat it as less important. They are possibly only less important but to us.
I think that much of our disrespect for other lifeforms is maybe because we are still very primitive. And just like our society is advancing in human rights one day our society may come to a realization that all life on earth should be respected in the same way we respect our fellow human beings.
So if we ever get there, I could see we would be much more concerned about using animals for testing just like we are about using humans. Maybe then we would sacrifice pharmacolgy "progress" for moral progress. And perhaps moral progress is more important on the long run. Perhaps tuning into compassion for all living beings is a better medicine for humanity than all the pharmacology we could ever invent through tourturing other life forms.
The bottom line is we as humans would never accept a more advanced species to use us as testtube dummies, so what gives us the right to use animals as such?
And I don't want to get to fanatical, perhaps there is a middle road where animal testing becomes strictly regulated and only used in rare cases and limited to the most important uses. But currently I get the sense that there is simply no regard and respect for the animals being used for testing and they are used for just about any stupid experiment we come up with.
And yeah, while we bitch about a poor little kitty we also eat more meat than we need, use products that indirectly destroy the enviroment in huge ways, and are indifferent to poverty around the world where millions of kids are dying. And while we may be sad for the kitty we have no compasion for killing rats with poison because they are disease carrying pests, right? So its easy to be hypocrete, but still seeing a cat suffering in front of your face is very direct and to get pissed off about it seems like a compassionate reaction. Its when you actually see it so close that we react. But to tourture any animal is just plain bad, whether it's a dirty disease carrying rat, a nice little kitty or a human.
I think the problem with the kitty on LSD is they gave him a very big dose, all he needed was half a hit and they probably squizeed the whole LSD bottle ( ok, I am fucking kidding).
Though I am reminded of a dog some friends had who loved to get stoned and would come as soon as we were smoking out, but very different thing because the dog actually liked the experience.
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Dec 29, 2006 02:44
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Well I think I see what you are saying..
But limiting animal testing to "only the most important uses" wouldnt really work. True understanding of biology and sceince in general comes from lots and lots of small, relatively uninteresting experiments. A lot of stupid little experiments need to happen before enough information is gotten to know what the big experiment is going to be, and how to interpret its results.
Scientists dont do animal testing to be cruel. Animal testing is actually very slow and painstaking work, and not many people would do it just for the hell of it... its simply way too much trouble.
Anyway, scientists do have to go through quite a lot of red tape to justify any kind or animal research (even on a goldfish). They must write extensive reports detailing why alternative methods to animal testing are not feasable, and what the eventual aim of the research is. This must be approved by an institutional animal care and use comitte, which cannot just be made up of scientists, it also must include members of the local community where the research is taking place. It's not like scientists can just go and do whatever they want, whenever they want.
And true, I did mean that animals life is less important than a humans TO ME, but that is what matters to me: I am a Human, so my loyalty is to Humans and their interests.
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katam
Abomination
Started Topics :
17
Posts :
557
Posted : Dec 30, 2006 21:47
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bottom line dude my cat looks like the cat in the experiment...i guess you just dont love cats as much as i do....
if that makes me a wuss so be it...
Anwyay i dont see how giving a cat way too much lsd could help human kind..... |
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Dec 30, 2006 22:53
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Animal research using hallucinogens has been helpful to the development of antipsychotic drugs, which have improved the lives of many people by allowing them to live at home instead of in mental institutions.
By studying the chemical changes that happen inside animals brains after they have been given drugs that produce psychotic-like changes in humans, scientists have been able to gain insight into the chemical changes that happen in brains of humans with psychotic disorders. That in turn, has led to the development of drugs that reverse these chemical changes. That also requires animals, because they give the animal PCP or LSD or Amphetamine, and then try to find drugs that block the behavioral and/or neurochemical effects of these drugs. In particular, learning how LSD-like hallucinogens work has resulted in the development of antispsychotic drugs that lack the brain-damaging side-effects of the earlier antipsychotics.
So bottom line is I was wrong to call you a wuss (it doesnt really have anything to do with that), but I stand by my belief that this kind of research is important and needs to continue. The suggestion that scientists do it just to be cruel and deserve to be treated worse than criminals that hurt human beings was what really pissed me off, I reckon.
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mk47
Inactive User
Started Topics :
118
Posts :
4444
Posted : Dec 31, 2006 14:37
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cruel ... grow a heart / brain Psycosmo
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TrancEisT
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
127
Posts :
494
Posted : Dec 31, 2006 16:24
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Thats one trippy cat.
Should be space cats next album cover
 lol
 I like Trance, so i am called The TrancEisT. but hey... what about people who like Rap? what are they called? |
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Dec 31, 2006 23:20
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On 2006-12-31 14:37, mk47 wrote:
cruel ... grow a heart / brain Psycosmo
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Bah-Humbug!
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Djones
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
267
Posts :
1766
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 14:34
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On 2006-12-28 08:41, Psycosmo wrote:
Well perhaps I shouldnt have been so harsh in my words, Abominations statement in particular made me pretty mad and I overracted I guess.
You are not wussies for disagreeing with this kind of research, but I do think you are failing to recognize the importance of this kind of research.
Drugs need to be tested in animals so that changes in chemical concentrations in their tissues can be measured, their brains examined etc., and for this one needs to kill the test subject at the end of the experiment. This information also cannot be gotten from tissue culture technology or current computer simulations. I dont view a cat or rats life as having equal importance to a human life, especially not if the animal was borne and raised in captivity. It is not an endangered species either, so there is no ecological reason not to do it.
IMO Animal testing is less bad than killing human test subjects, and is also less bad than not knowing what is learned from it.
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You got it all wrong!
Animals don't have to sacrifice for our medial research!
Just one of those arrogant opinions of another person, thinking people are more "important" than animals.
If you wanna do research, than test it on yourself!
There is no way to justify this stuff!
By far, by far i would choose to test on prisoners for example, which would be very cruel on its own, but to use poor animals which in now way harm us or do us bad is unforgiveable! |
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Pt.
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
236
Posts :
6106
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 17:36
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On 2007-01-05 14:34, Djones wrote:
You got it all wrong!
Animals don't have to sacrifice for our medial research! |
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Yeah! You got plenty of human beings in Africa that are being tested with "untested" medicaments every day to better “our” world so that if I get deceases, I’ll know that the pharmacy product that I “need” to get healthy has been well tested on other human beings before I digest it – It makes me feel oh so safe, um. ..o_O.. At least the cat seems to be ready for a major take-off – fly baby! FLY!.  Poor cute cat with BIG wide open terrified eyes 
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On 2006-12-23 04:33, kArO wrote:
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On 2006-12-08 06:31, psytheriatsunami wrote:
i cant understand why using animals when they have.............
ME!
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 in the name of science! sign me up!
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Bring it On !! 
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 17:50
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You got it all wrong!
Animals don't have to sacrifice for our medial research!
Just one of those arrogant opinions of another person, thinking people are more "important" than animals.
If you wanna do research, than test it on yourself!
There is no way to justify this stuff!
By far, by far i would choose to test on prisoners for example, which would be very cruel on its own, but to use poor animals which in now way harm us or do us bad is unforgiveable!
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Just another arrogant opinion from some animal rights nut that doesnt know jacksquat about science 
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Djones
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
267
Posts :
1766
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 18:40
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On 2007-01-05 17:50, Psycosmo wrote:
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You got it all wrong!
Animals don't have to sacrifice for our medial research!
Just one of those arrogant opinions of another person, thinking people are more "important" than animals.
If you wanna do research, than test it on yourself!
There is no way to justify this stuff!
By far, by far i would choose to test on prisoners for example, which would be very cruel on its own, but to use poor animals which in now way harm us or do us bad is unforgiveable!
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Just another arrogant opinion from some animal rights nut that doesnt know jacksquat about science
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Science justify anything and therefore isn't an excuse for this.
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Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Jan 5, 2007 22:51
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Why don't we just go back to the stone ages and live in mud huts and heat ourselves with fire and cure cancer by dancing around shaking rattles and playing bongo drums?
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Zekazy
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
14
Posted : Jan 6, 2007 10:37
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On 2007-01-05 22:51, Psycosmo wrote:
Why don't we just go back to the stone ages and live in mud huts and heat ourselves with fire and cure cancer by dancing around shaking rattles and playing bongo drums?
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Hahhahahaha.. You crack me up.
http://www.zekazy.net |
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MॐZC4L1†0
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
375
Posted : Jan 9, 2007 01:45
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On 2006-12-27 16:04, katam wrote:
If i ever knew anyone who did something like this.....I would fucking beat his ass so bad and shove a 2 gram crystal of pure lsd down his throat and put him in a transparent plastic cage so he can loose his mind.....
this pissed me off so bad......
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what if u only shove the 2 gram crystal lsd??? im up 4 it
Memento Mori |
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sunshine superman
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
97
Posted : Jan 11, 2007 09:23
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man seriously this is not right , that poor cat wouldn even know wat hit its brain ,
i mean come on human biengs do have the mental and physial capability to withstand drugs not animals dude.
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