| Author
|
Square wave Phenomenon!
|
Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 10:56:24
|
|
dija
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
48
Posts :
483
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 11:37
|
yeah man, that is why i love some of the older releases. the dynamics is amazing compared to some of the stuff today. much of todays psy especially fullon and dark being the main culprits sound so flat due to over compressing and/or clipping.
However, that being said I have heard some prominent members on here say that they actually use clipping as an advantage when mastering. I am not sure how this works. There was a huge thread about it a long while back and I forget the people who claimed this technique.
  http://www.youtube.com/user/trawhi (tutorials)
http://www.myspace.com/eusidmusic |
|
|
|
Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 12:15
|
Well i dont know how good method that is..
many prominent artists are in this loudness war and they all fall...
really, their sounds wont be worse if they dont push it over the limit and it definitely wont better if they push it over the limit!
just cause they are prominent wont mean they are correct! 
|
|
|
|
dija
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
48
Posts :
483
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 12:19
|
the loudness war needs to stop. the only applicable reason to have a set volume is for djs. of course if i made an album they'd all be about the same volume/rms. It is just disgusting when I can't see the lead poking out above the rest of the mix like its supposed to. It's called a lead for a reason. Everything else is accompanyment 
http://www.youtube.com/user/trawhi (tutorials)
http://www.myspace.com/eusidmusic |
|
|
|
Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 12:33
|
To be a Dj is to make up for these differences..
its not supposed to be an easy job... but of course the music should be as loud and pumping as possible..
|
|
|
|
PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 12:51
|
|
it ll never stop imo ,some archieve to get a good loud sound (offcourse it would sound even better if it wasn t so loud)and others want to sound as loud and good but it s not so easy so they ruin the sound trying to archieve it . (depending the mix of the track and the tool used there is a limit to not cross) |
|
|
|
Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 14:04
|
Quote:
|
On 2009-01-17 12:51, PoM wrote:
it ll never stop imo ,some archieve to get a good loud sound (offcourse it would sound even better if it wasn t so loud)and others want to sound as loud and good but it s not so easy so they ruin the sound trying to archieve it . (depending the mix of the track and the tool used there is a limit to not cross)
|
|
yeah true...
you have to mix very narrow to be able to maximize it all with out something getting stuck in between compromising the abillity to raise the rest.. but maybe you want to some dynamics in the track or lets say you have some dynamics and it needs to be that way. but still you want the rest to be loud aswell... ? thats tricky
strange is that it really takes some serious pushing to get clipping/distortion that really shows on a larger scale, often those clips we see are just very tiny transients being square..
i say you can push a mix very much but its not always nice.. well its sounds louder and so but it wont sound better. or will it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K-14_spectrafoo.jpg
from what i understand with this picture is that you can goo +4dB and it will not make the soundwave flat..
anyway i think this is a interesting topic.
|
|
|
|
Kane
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
1772
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 14:46
|
Sorry if I'm wrong, but I think you have the wrong idea here. As long as the mix isn't clipping before it's mastered, it doesn't really make a difference. The wave will not get "square" if it's run through a decent limiter with proper attack and release settings at the end of the mastering chain.
Loop clipping at +20dB:
http://kanepsy.com/ftpupload/upload/Picture%202.png
Same loop at the same volume with a limiter on the master (threshold and ceiling at 0dB):
http://kanepsy.com/ftpupload/upload/Picture%203.png
The loudness war doesn't have to do with peak, it's about the RMS.
You believe in the users?
Yeah, sure. If I don't have a user, then who wrote me? |
|
|
|
Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 15:11
|
okej i see..
so lets say we have a final mix, its no clipping and with a headroom of 4dB so its at -6dB
do you mean that we can clipp it as long as we run it through a limiter afterwards?
i might have the wrong ideas yes thats why i want to elborate..
still our ears gets tried if stuff is too loud.
one more question, how comes that in most audio programs mastered psytracks and others of course always clipp a little or alot? is this a good thing?
okej not all but a majority...
http://phy.hk/wiki/englishhtm/Rms.htm
i would really like to grasp this RMS thing..
it looks like most people clipp their stuff..
i mean if adobe audition shows red it does clipp or just warn that its near to clipp? casue when you zoom in its hard to tell if the waves is square..
|
|
|
|
Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 15:52
|
|
Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 16:05
|
Colin OOOD - Do you think music should clipp.. even if its Dance music...
i mean no classic composer would dream of driving their track as close to Zero..
what is the difference really..
what up with people really thinking that driving their tracks to the red is a good thing.. does it make a special sound? is it good in any way?
i need some answers.. some people say, as long as it sounds good.. well i say for how long does it sound good?
Some people seem to like this effect, of clipping, yes... i know there are dynamic FX called clippers.. .
some info on this? what is the difference..
sorry guys i havent had any sleep and im getting kind of driven.. lol
maybe some one can sort me out?
|
|
|
|
Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 17:19
|
"The End Of Clipping?
Precision peak control can be achieved using numerous methods. Probably the most common is the hard limiter, or peak clipper. Most audio processors designed over the last twenty years also employ some form of distortion masking as a tool to suppress the Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) that is created by the clipper. This makes it possible to utilize more of the clipping function, which translates directly to more perceived loudness.
Employing a clipper as a peak limiter in a HD Radio system will work, but there are sonic penalties to be paid. Any clipping process yields harmonics of the fundamental source signal, and even with distortion masking some second order harmonic content will remain. This adds to the audio spectrum and aggravates the encoder, which in turn spawns additional sonic artifacts. This is particularly noticeable in the high-frequency range - where most codec artifacts exist - and is very noticeable with certain program material; therefore, another form of peak limiter is needed."
Okej! Clipping is not always a bad thing i find out..
i think about ear fatigue or listening fatigue has alot to do with the material you work with..
its all about listening and earing out what sounds good, still i dont see why we need to clip the master. at least have the decency to lower the material to -0.1 or -0.3 or what ever... i dont want to see red lights! haha
and be carefull with these Total Harmonics Distortions (THD) that is created by the clipper
cause i strongly believe they can have alot to do with ear/listening fatigue..
|
|
|
|
dija
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
48
Posts :
483
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 18:16
|
I hear a lot of this technique. Artists playing very very few instruments as possible, however the ones that are playing are as loud and high quality as possible. Often songs are so minimal I believe to make it loud  Full on psy and dark psy are the WORST culprits at this type of thing. They usually play a rather loud k/b combo then throw in some squelch or white noise effect for extra rythm on top of the percussions. Then they sweep some fx by here and there and call it a song. ALthough, in 90% of cases contain 1 lead towards the peak of the track, 5% will make a failed attempt at using leads to create a hook, and the other %5 percent of fullon artists (not dark) have some interesting psy with melodic progressions and hooks.
Haha, sorry dark psy fans. I bang on dark psy pretty hard because I feel disrespected as a musician to have people making money off dark psy. However, it definitely isn't any worse than Britney Spears who has to sing through a pitch correction machine. However, Britney's producers do a decent
Take Vibraspheres album "Exploring the Tributaries". Some artists/producers go for a good groove that pumps then throw a bunch of FX and rythmic FX in that all are very good. Although vibrasphere does this they do use leads and lots of harmony in their songs, which are well composed. Their sound design is very highly refined. That is the appeal of vibrasphere to me. Minimal progressive dance at its finest. They do quite a job on their mixes as well. Especially their down tempo songs like Ensueno are produced magnificently with plenty of dynamics and plenty of upper frequency goodies.
http://www.youtube.com/user/trawhi (tutorials)
http://www.myspace.com/eusidmusic |
|
|
|
Kane
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
1772
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 18:49
|
It all depends on whether the wave is truncated or attenuated to avoid the clipping. A hard limiter just attenuates the signal very quickly where it would otherwise clip. When a wave is truncated it becomes "square" like you're describing and causes harmonic distortion. THD isn't necessarily a direct cause of ear fatigue...a track can be relatively loud (RMS wise) without clipping and with extremely little THD but still cause ear fatigue. It's just the lack of dynamic that annoys you eventually. Think of how difficult it is to sit and listen to a constant, raw square wave as opposed to a melody played into a square based synth lead with some delay, filter modulation, etc.
You believe in the users?
Yeah, sure. If I don't have a user, then who wrote me? |
|
|
|
Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Jan 17, 2009 19:32
|
Kane - i will read more about this topic, thanks for explaining...
i just feelt the urge to understand more of this stuff
i guess there are alot of variables contributing to ear fatigue...
Cheers
|
|
|
|
