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Sound quality vs Creativity
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Psynaesthesian
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
30
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557
Posted : Mar 21, 2007 17:15
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i would like to see more musicians venturing into psychedelic music.
the majority of today's scene is dj style dominated .. if one can cue a couple of samples in an 8 bar loop he's got a killllaaaaagh on hand.
no disrespect ... just mho
B'om shankara
  "... b'om ..." |
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The_Guardians_Of_Truth
Atma
Started Topics :
16
Posts :
379
Posted : Mar 21, 2007 18:31
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I personally spend much more time on sound quallity fixing than in creativity, if i have to make comparation with what i was doing 7-8 years ago.
But i don't think this make the music worst than before. Every artist in the world try to perfectionate his music skills, and sound quallity is one of the important things.
Evolution of the music means both, creativity and quallity.
The problem is:
10 years ago, there was maybe, 100 psy artists, all of them making good music and all of them with solid music knoweledges.
Today we have, let's say, 2000 artists, but most of them without real musical knoweledges...but for sure there are still 200 good artists between this 2000.
So, let's make comparation: 200 vs. 100 good artists.
Isn't this EVOLUTION ???
OFFTOPIC:
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On 2007-03-05 02:09, Saf wrote:
Most full on I hear has nothing psychedelic about it, at all.
So why is it called Psy Trance?
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not psychedelic ?? well, please define us what psychedelic means to you !!!
And if today's "full on" is not psychedelic, well maybe "Britney Spears" it is psychedelic 
aren't you bored of this: "fullon or progressive is not psychedelic...so called dark music si the real psychedelic stuff..bla bla" ???
Well i am psytrance or "goa" artist (call it how you want) since '95-96 and i can say i have little experience in this music scene and better said, in "psychedelic culture".
Of course in all this years i tryed, and i made, my own oppinion about what psychedelic means.
But...i am very curiouse how other peoples define "psychedelic music" because, no offence, in my oppinion, what peoples call today "psychdelic", has nothing to do with the "psychedelic trance culture"
NEW ALBUM OUT SOON !!!
"ATMA - Music Revolution"
www.myspace.com/atmastudio |
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RenderingRebel
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
293
Posted : Mar 21, 2007 18:43
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psychedelic is not a genre!
For me jimi hendrix is really psychedelic, but for some people it is just crazy guitar solo's and skazi is really psychedelic
Just depends on the person
Dark psy for me is psycho music and it doesnt appeal to me.
but for somebody else progressive is house music
This discussion is really useless, ghehe |
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dija
IsraTrance Junior Member
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48
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483
Posted : Mar 22, 2007 04:06
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I thought I could sit the rest of this out but I can't!
Anyone who spends more time on their sound quality than on the writing of the music should be banished. Sound quality is important and in electronic music it is part of the creative process. Sound quality has BECOME THE CREATIVE PROCESS though. This is completely wrong. Nobody is saying there is absolutely no good music being made. We're just saying the vast majority of it is garbage. Its not the artists fault its the peoples fault. I don't know what direction this is going in. I don't really think its different than anything else. The majority of movies are garbage, the majority of music are garbage. I guess it is just natural that most of everything will be bad and you have to look a long ways to find the greatness.
My love for electronic music is the complete control I have over everything. Sound manipulation and design is second to solid composition.
If you think music can be made with sound fx only. You should be banished.
If you think music can be made with absolutely no melody. You should be banished.
If you think sound quality is more important than arrangement, melody, harmony etc. You should be banished.
If you RELEASE/PROMOTE your music but you can't create harmonic progressions, hooks or melodies. You should be banished.
If you are a record label who is releasing this music. You should be banished.
If you are a listener who listens to this music. You should be banished.
It is incredibly insulting to anyone who has moderate taste for music, and especially to the people creating good music that is full of life and motion. Some kid discovers the resonance slider on the synthesizer and knows how to mix a track and BAM we have a release ladies and gentlemen.
This is off topic but just turn on the radio and that is exactly what I hear in the electronic scene today. The hip hop on there any retard that has FLStudio can write it in 20 minutes. That is the way I feel about the majority of the dance music I am hearing. It requires no skill to create, just moderate technical ability. Some of you are saying this is my opinion, but that is far from the truth. My musical judgments are fair in every way. I know what it takes to make great music regardless of rather I like the style or not and I have a good knowledge about what technical ability is needed also. Even the technical only stuff I hear is usually unimpressive even from that stand point.
Bottom line: Consumers, stop listening to garbage. Noisemakers/Labels (musicians) stop promoting music that is sub par. Put some life into it. The musician needs to reclaim himself as someone with great skill and discipline. Someone to look up to and admire. Someone who will be remembered for great achievements.
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
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3709
Posted : Mar 22, 2007 06:31
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dija - i think you are a little harsh!
just casue someone puts alot of work into what they do and do it by all the rules of the art dosent mean its good.
You like a track for what it is, if its cheesey and formulatic then so be it, it fills a space.
Some artists makes the fomulatic stuff very good, its a art and some do it better than others, but that is subjective as with everything.
nothing should be banished, if its has little worth it will vanish.
Stop being so hooked by your perfect visions of music, just let it flow and appreciate what you get and got. Great music has been made and great music will continue to get made, by both amateures and pros.
if there wasnt for bad music there wouldnt be good music 
i make both good and bad music.
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dija
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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483
Posted : Mar 22, 2007 06:43
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Freeflow
That is just the thing though. People don't put a lot of work into what they do. The lack of effort is one major point in my opinion followed by lack of skill. I don't care for people using the same formula but if the formula works then use it. Regardless of rather it is a widely used formula each artist is going to have a formula. The problem with it is it has gotten so generic. When I say generic I mean that there is a lack of creativity in it. They just do what the last guy does. If you like the music take the formula but put your own sound to it. There are people that do the formula better than others you are right. It takes many many hours to put together a respectable piece of music. Yet most of this stuff I hear sounds like it was put together in a couple hours or a day or two. Which is why I say there is a lack of effort. |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
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40
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803
Posted : Mar 22, 2007 08:44
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dija - Pretty much what u said is exactly what Im trying to point out as well.
But banishment doesnt solve anything - u cant really send people with guns to police good music. But what we can do is make a culture of good musicians here on isra. we can learn and use good practices, and promote and help with others learning good practices.
By good practices I dont mean - you will do it in such and such a way. but rather - make it a culture of asking what did you do in your music that is unique to yourself and objectively good music. what makes it sound like yourself and actually makes people think fondly of you. And if theres nothing then we should frown upon that sort of attitude.
Banishment no - but definitely some sort of pressure. Dont just sit there and listen to crap music. say something. stand up. ITS CRAAAAP! stop playing it! They dont know what theyre doing! theyre amateurs! THEY SUUUUCK!
Dont let the moochers take over the world.
Rant Off. |
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soulfood
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
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875
Posted : Mar 22, 2007 14:58
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I think some people need to stand outside themselves and realise that their musical taste is not the world. Everyone thinks that they have the best musical taste because to them they do.
*makes constipated straining sound*
And for the last fucking time.
TELL US WHO IS GOOD!!!
If you are just telling us who you think isn't good all you are doing is spreading a pointless negative message.
If you inform us of who you think's good we can all say they're are shit and be done with it.
I've seen the same arguement typed up here again and again and it's going nowhere. We're just back where we were a couple of pages ago now.
I'll tell you this though, I've heard great tracks which claim to have been made in several hours and been absolutely blown away by them. I've also heard tracks which have taken months to layer up which sound way too full to the extent that every element sounds small just so it fits in.
Superioriy need'nt be complex. The best artists can say in one note what real wannabe try-hards can't say with 16 and a filter  .
This arguement reminds me of some of my guitar playing friends who thinks that anyone who doesnt play really fast is crap because they can't do this thing that they desire.
The truth is a good "musician" knows what to do exactly to deliver the message.
A good producer is quite another thing. Sometimes if a person is lucky and will be both these things after much determination and progress.
I find the main reason for low production or creativity standards is that you usually end up with one or another and in a music scene that is relatively underground, artists can't really afford engineers, producers, session players.
I think the fact that there are so many artists trying to make this music is a good thing, if they are creative or not in your mind is regardless as the amount of music builds up and up people realise they have to try a bit harder to get heard and taken seriously and be original which is the reason we have so many sub genre's. As everyone puts there little spin on things, tradition is changed and creativity emerges out of the ashes of something old.
And if you think someone isn't good, you should still not speak so negatively against them because they are just doing there own thing regardless of production/composition skills. There's always going to be someone out there who likes the music they make for some special reason, so who the hell are you to condemn that? |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
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803
Posted : Mar 22, 2007 16:02
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Show me an artist with performance skill and composition skills that provoke thought and Il show you a good artist.
Show me a released fumbling amateur who cant do anything but play random noises and 10 to 1 his genre is psy.(well - or trance to be generous) |
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soulfood
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
875
Posted : Mar 22, 2007 17:46
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Hey ya know what?
If there was a sport where you could win by saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over, you'd be the champion.
I hear you and respect your opinion. But your's is not the world.
One question I have for you though that is somewhat related:
You said you do the music for your project and you have someone else who does the more techy end of things. Do you have a procedure to make a track which you follow, or is it an inspiration thing where it happens as it happens?
I myself as the arranger/producer etc find it sometimes difficult to give both these things my full attention as I have trouble splitting the composition from the production and as a result things either just take longer or more often than not, I will either think a melody that is so good I don't design a strong enough sound to carry the idea through. Comparitively sometimes I design a sound I like so much I tend to repeat it mindlessly rather than developing it in a melodic sense in accordance with the rest of the composition.
I'd be interested to read any comments you have on the creative process as a view of a different way for individual artists to work. |
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Psynaesthesian
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
30
Posts :
557
Posted : Mar 22, 2007 18:22
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Quote:
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On 2007-03-22 17:46, soulfood wrote:
One question I have for you though that is somewhat related:
You said you do the music for your project and you have someone else who does the more techy end of things. Do you have a procedure to make a track which you follow, or is it an inspiration thing where it happens as it happens?
I myself as the arranger/producer etc find it sometimes difficult to give both these things my full attention as I have trouble splitting the composition from the production and as a result things either just take longer or more often than not, I will either think a melody that is so good I don't design a strong enough sound to carry the idea through. Comparitively sometimes I design a sound I like so much I tend to repeat it mindlessly rather than developing it in a melodic sense in accordance with the rest of the composition.
I'd be interested to read any comments you have on the creative process as a view of a different way for individual artists to work.
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Dude ... i've asked the exact same thing a number of times all across the board in this forum ... but i've never got a respose ... i would really like to see a constructive and elightening reply to this.
b'om shankara!!
"... b'om ..." |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
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803
Posted : Mar 22, 2007 18:44
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I never said that.
My partner actually is more accomplished than me since he has a few releases under his belt already. he puts in 3 times or more work than me. in essence He knows what psy is supposed to sound like, so he can take my melodic musings and actually make a track out of it. He's really pedantic about production and knows a lot about making characteristic synth sounds. He's also the manager and marketer and politician. So "techie" is inappropriate.
Ive got a full time job and a gf so I dont generally get to put much effort into music, but when I do I like to make a kick and bass for rhythm, then I flip through presets and play around on my controller. Il play some lead that sounds cool with the bass, then check what could add that would take it to the next place. Then I decide on an arrangement structure and try to stick the piece in it and stick to it. try to make a small cadence in the melody, considering the phrase lengths and rhythms etc. introduce a new one maybe that implies a harmony. and generally go by feel - when I get into it, I can imagine what Id like it to do, then I think - no hold on - Id like to make a bridge here and modulate instead, try to figure out the direction of the chords. imply them with a countermelody thats softer, stay in the new key a bit.
Think - oh that could use a pad here - flip through more presets, adjust the envelopes a bit.
start next section.
Then I listen to some other peoples stuff, think thats really cool, then reverse engineer that bit and put my own spin on it.
then carry on in the same way till the end, run through it to see if Ive made mistakes numerous times. then I hand it over to Benny my partner, then he bitches that my monitors suck, adds in percs, dumps my bass for his own, most of the supporting leads, puts leads of his own in, and tells me that was really great, but we need something else here to make it more energetic. then he sends me the new nuendo file, and I add a bit here and there, send it back and he reckons much better. And this goes round and round.
Personally Im not at the level yet where I can subconsciously decide lets start out fluffy and end dark, and perform a subconscious modulation and add dissonance and raspiness. nope, need to plan and experiment a lot. Also Im not much into samples and warping and squiglies, so the integration sort of doesnt work to well on that level.
But the real issue here is that whether I approach music this or that way, I can criticise it well anyway, coz I have always been an audio person and been interested in music and gained a perspective on the tools, tricks used in music and composition. So regardless of how good or bad I am at it now, I can hear the process in action or lack of it.
I dont have predefined notions of music, I like any music noisy or melodic provided its original. (and by original I mean different so that ive never heard anything like it but not stupidly ignorant of music theory ) I love S.I.N.A which is basically rhythmic noise with distorted chic vocals. I love bjork, nin, vangelis, jarre, andreas vollenweider, black lung, hocico, autechre and aphex twin. Lets not forget xenomorph. The only shit I cant stand is that rap thrash shit like korn.
Anyway, 95% of psy is unoriginal. It is my friggin drEE'EE'EE'AAAMMMM that this should change if only the stupid prevailing wisemen on the forum stopped saying U dont need any music knowledge. |
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slyman604
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
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263
Posted : Mar 22, 2007 18:57
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Superioriy need'nt be complex. The best artists can say in one note what real wannabe try-hards can't say with 16 and a filter .
This arguement reminds me of some of my guitar playing friends who thinks that anyone who doesnt play really fast is crap because they can't do this thing that they desire.
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here is a better analogy guitar wise. Imagine 10 years ago it cost $5-10k to buy a guitar. The people who bought those guitars were very serious about it and most likely wanted to use the guitar to make a living from the music it would produce because it was so expensive to start. Fast forward 10 years and anyone can download a guitar for virtually free from the internet. Now that means anyone can learn guitar, those who couldnt afford one before can now learn to play. Now would that result in better guitar music or would that result in a whole lot of shit music being produced and actually squeaze out the people who would have spent 5-10k on a guitar making them go look for a different instrument to play? That to me is psytrance in a nutshell.
VST is not going away, the only people that can change this are the artists, if you cant play guitar dont even try to release music until you can. |
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dija
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
48
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483
Posted : Mar 22, 2007 19:40
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This is how I create a dance song, not how I create other songs.
When I start a song I create the groove first. Make a kick, bass, and a percussion loop. Then I maybe add a low-mid acid or other synth to add to the groove to help the bass along. Then I start to make a melody. I design every sound from initial patch. No reason to bother presets imo most of them aren't very good anyways and thats part of the creativity to me. Once I have my melody I will make several variations of it and maybe create some chords that follow it. Then after I have a decent groove built I'll go in and make a few "end of bar bass runs".
(note: when I say arrangement I know it is not the complete proper definition. I suppose it is given that I will be changing the song quite a bit during this stage but mostly I am referring to order of events, however , I always change up the melodies also)
Also now that I have a little of an arrangement going here with the chords then the melody etc I will create some sound fx that liven up the atmosphere a bit. I will spend vast amount of time creating more percussive loops, sound fx and variations of the chords and melodies. Particularly I will make sure that I have several instruments to play the melody with so I can have one instrument take over and play a variation of the melody without getting boring. I will also create a variety of background harmonies or other instruments that will compliment the melody. Once the track is complete it will have a variety of percussion loops, quite a few melodies, a good bit of end of bar bass breakdowns, snare rolls, kick rolls, stops and starts that I can insert when I feel. I will generally at this point go through and create a few what I would call transition FX synths maybe a pro53 polymod that sweeps up or some LFO modulated synth that will transition into the next section. These coupled with the bass breakdowns and percussive builds etc will help me arrange the song and create the intensity I want for each new part. After I have the song laid out the way I desire I will then start to tweak my sounds to to the fullest extent. Layering them up and really spending the extra time on them (doing this during the writing kills my creativity, additionally, now that all the parts are in place I will be able to keep everything in mind when I design them) During this part I will also take one last look at the lay out / arrangement of the song and probably insert some new sound fx and make some minor changes. After I feel all the sounds are what I want. I Save a backup and start mixing. Usually takes me a couple days to mix it the way I want and to be honest I don't get the results I want in mix down...or in writing for that matter. This is how I do it. I create the groove first since dance is so strongly centered around the groove but I use the groove to create the melody and after I have the melody I manipulate all the other parts around it. Basically, I feel that having the groove helps me write an appropriate dance melody but after I have it then I change the groove as needed to go with it better. |
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soulfood
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
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875
Posted : Mar 23, 2007 03:13
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Quote:
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On 2007-03-22 18:44, bukboy wrote:
But the real issue here is that whether I approach music this or that way, I can criticise it well anyway, coz I have always been an audio person and been interested in music and gained a perspective on the tools, tricks used in music and composition. So regardless of how good or bad I am at it now, I can hear the process in action or lack of it.
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Nah that was the issue like a page ago and I was trying to move things on and you got defensive over nothing. what have you got against progress?
I love you man.
When I make a track I just scribble with rough sounds in no particular order and then I rearrange. After that I produce. I don't see any need to organise things too much as I like to write on 100% inspiration. If I'm out of ideas or just want to work on my production I might spend a little while trying to make a bass groove thats really refreshing. Then I delete that, listen to other bass lines I have then I see if I can do better in my head. The rest of the process is deleting and recreating until I have something I am happy with. This takes a veeeeeerrrrry long time in which I often over EQ out of boredom and do things again and again.
I'm still a rookie in all this production biz but when I look at VST's I don't see an easy ticket to having people know my name. I see an instrument which can do what my mind can but my body can't. Super inventions. |
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