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Sound quality vs Creativity
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
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Posted : Mar 7, 2007 11:47
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I must admit I havent listened to much skazi. I will do so as soon as I have a little time.
U should consider that even if he doesnt have any experience, his engineers do.
Dharma lab - so ur saying we shouldnt try to make new music coz itl get boring? Why not just lay down and die? 
Dija - Dont u think that if you can intuitively transcribe your musical ideas, it would make it a lot easier to be creative coz your creativity would be far less constrained? Also dont you think you would increase the amount and quality of ideas that you have if you intuitively understand the "rules" (more like reccomendations) of music theory?
All Im saying is that the problem with creativity in PSY is the attitude that people have which is that if u dont have any experience or knowledge (same thing to me really), you can still make decent stuff. Rubbish!
It takes years and years to know how to analyse the best interesting, self consistent stuff, never mind create it yourself.
Thats all Im asking that this attitude change. Then we can all stop complaining about how uncreative the PSY scene is. |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
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Posted : Mar 7, 2007 13:29
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Ok Ive listened to a bit of skazi, i.e. 2 or 3 or 4 tracks. I cant say I like it.
That said he does have good control of tension/release, his harmonic instruments and drum kits seem tuned to the scale he's in. His rhythms are complementary, the ends of his sections are reinforced, he introduces new sections pretty smoothly and knows where to introduce, knows how to keep interest between phrases. but it doesnt look like much harmony or melody goes into it. (like the most important thing in like.... MUSIC)
I think its very boring personally.
What exactly is this style called?
Do you think this great stuff? because everybody who likes this stuff shouldnt be complaining about lack of creativity, since this stuff has no creativity to begin with.
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Psynaesthesian
IsraTrance Junior Member
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557
Posted : Mar 7, 2007 13:56
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All Im saying is that the problem with creativity in PSY is the attitude that people have which is that if u dont have any experience or knowledge (same thing to me really), you can still make decent stuff. Rubbish!
It takes years and years to know how to analyse the best interesting, self consistent stuff, never mind create it yourself.
Thats all Im asking that this attitude change. Then we can all stop complaining about how uncreative the PSY scene is.
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Sound Quality Vs Creativity ..... at the very outset i thought i could find some really useful information in this thread related to how musicians/producers (anyone who can make music is a producer to me  ; categorizing into ameteur, expert, etc. is a critique priveledge - so i'm not goin there) could overcome this eternal balancing act that makes so many of us at the gates of this industry look like juggling jokers!
In an effort to propel this into more revealing dimensions, founded in the closing words of bukaboy (much respect to ya bro):-
"Good sound quality is primarily what is expected from a producer. A producer attempting to make music should focus on which of the following? :
a) Ensuring that the sound / music being produced is technically correct right from bar 1 of the track? - ie. focus on quality right from the word GO?
b) Compose the entire tracks first and then worry about the technical aspects of it once it's complete?
c) considering you would select option (b), how would you overcome clashing sound levels and clipping of elements in your track that are really the basis of the complete composition, without having to discard these and wound your soul, cos they just can't be fixed without killing the feel?"
From experience i can state that my focus on the "technical correctness" approach drains me of the open minded vision of creation and composition!
And then again i have alot to loose at the finish line when i can't get all that i want in my mix!
B'om Shankara!!
 "... b'om ..." |
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Dharma Lab
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Posted : Mar 7, 2007 20:41
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On 2007-03-07 11:47, bukboy wrote:
Dharma lab - so ur saying we shouldnt try to make new music coz itl get boring? Why not just lay down and die?
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No, not at all. I'm saying 'boring' is relative, not absolute. The more you listen, and the more you are experienced with music theory, I think the better the chance you'll find something 'boring'. Why do I say this, because creativity is easily defined as transcending traditional ideas & patterns. The more ideas & patterns you are familiar with, the less likely you'll be hearing something 'new'.
Sound quality is quantifiable, while I feel that creativity is much more relative to the ears it is falling upon. What is creative to me may not be to you. I believe the laymen can instinctly understand & identify lack of sound quality better than they could understand & identify lack of creativity.
In the end, you have to make the music that you want to make, & let the critics fly. I can say this, there are lots of sound engineers who have skills & equipment to help with your sound quality. Finding someone to help you with your creativity...well, seems like a much harder thing to me.
I say concentrate on making your music interesting (to yourself at least) first.
Keep The Faith,
Christian K. |
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mukusferry
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Mar 7, 2007 22:39
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welp i've read around 80% of what's been said in this thread, and agree with most of it..
one thing tho has been left out..
who cares ?
who minds the diffrence ?
answer:
1. the people who are connected in any way to the making of music, which obviously have the right set of tool (infact just words) to measure
what is "good" or "bad" music/sound etc.
2. die-hard music lovers, that music runs in their veins. those are people that lis10 to anything from classic music to hadcore gabba, and have a wide musical knowledge.
this group, accounts (to my estimation) to just around 5-10 percent of all people who listen to music regularly
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
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Posted : Mar 9, 2007 12:49
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If no one cares then Y are people complaining?
Certainly Im not gonna buy shit, immediately forgetteable kak. |
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slyman604
IsraTrance Junior Member
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263
Posted : Mar 10, 2007 07:23
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On 2007-03-07 20:41, Dharma Lab wrote:
No, not at all. I'm saying 'boring' is relative, not absolute. The more you listen, and the more you are experienced with music theory, I think the better the chance you'll find something 'boring'.
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i think there is another HUGE aspect to this as to why some people find alot of newer psytrance boring. people will say the sound quality is part of the music but rarely mention the fact that almost everyone uses the exact same handfull of synths and the synths are way more part of the music than the sound engineering.
who ever mentioned that the early producers came from different genres, i think much more important than that is that they all brought their different gear that they were using in those other genres to make the same type of music, they didnt pop on a message board and get pointed to albino. since they were all using different synths everyone sounded different. Couple everyone using the same synths basically now with the TOTAL abuse of limiting in the mastering stage, making everything as loud as possible, squashed, removing the last shred of character from the synths and its no wonder things dont sound creative. |
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dija
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Mar 12, 2007 19:48
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Quote:
| Dija - Dont u think that if you can intuitively transcribe your musical ideas, it would make it a lot easier to be creative coz your creativity would be far less constrained? Also dont you think you would increase the amount and quality of ideas that you have if you intuitively understand the "rules" (more like reccomendations) of music theory? |
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No I think musical theory can even go as far as hindering creativity. I know some basics of music theory. I use it as a tool for speed rather than creativity. The fact of the matter is if tones sound good together they sound good. Anybody writing music is using music theory rather they are trained in it or not. Some people have the natural ability to ear beautiful melodies. Music theory is nothing more than what people have invented over time to explain music. In my opinion music theory is most suitable as a communication tool for artists. I know that I can easily transition from C to G phygrian without hardly any change necessary because they are nearly the same. I know what keys they are so I save the time earing them is all. With the aid of knowing that I can just put it down without listening. Saves me a minute pecking on the keyboard is all. I don't know anything in theory beyond chords, scales so I am somewhat ignorant to it. I do know that I can achieve the results that I hear in my mind without the help of theory. But, knowing the scales makes transitioning from key to key faster.
So after my lengthy explanation... I believe that music theory is useful as a communication tool and to speed up the writing process. I think it is useless as a creative tool and I'll go as far to say that if you think too much about theory you'll forget what your doing...and thats making music.
Quote:
| All Im saying is that the problem with creativity in PSY is the attitude that people have which is that if u dont have any experience or knowledge (same thing to me really), you can still make decent stuff. Rubbish!
It takes years and years to know how to analyse the best interesting, self consistent stuff, never mind create it yourself.
Thats all Im asking that this attitude change. Then we can all stop complaining about how uncreative the PSY scene is. |
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I'm going to go out on a limb here. In my opinion most psy is made by people who should not be called musicians. The vast majority of psy relies on technical ability and not creativity. Some of this trash I hear getting released I wonder what is going on. Well its a proven fact that people will listen to ANYTHING. Just turn on the radio. Someone with a little bit of technical knowledge and perhaps 2 years of experience can jump right in and release psy. The standards are ridiculously low. If I wanted to conform completely to the psy game I'd do a complete track everyday and release two albums a year. Don't get me wrong there is some psy that I love. The fact is though that all dance music is simple music and having a high tempo and having to fall into a 4/4 immediately limits what you can do a whole lot. Also the fact that you can't deviate from the groove much or it won't be real dancable. I love dance music and I accept the fact that its simple but the releases I hear do the bare minimum. Kick, Bass, Squelch WEEE look at me.
I kind of got off topic here but yes I agree with you. To make good music it takes years and years and natural selection. I think the whole community should up their standards and labels should stop releasing sub par music. If the people would stop responding to garbage there would be less garbage available.
I know I'm going to draw a lot of flame for this |
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ASTARTICA
Astartica
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4
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Posted : Mar 12, 2007 21:30
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On 2007-03-04 05:06, UnderTow wrote:
I don't think good sound quality has anything to do with any lack of creativity. I think we should strive for the best sound quality possible at all times. This should not inhibit the musical aspects of our music.
I think rather that the times have changed.
Most of the people listening to Psytrance are not really in the alternative circuit any more. They are not world travels or hippies. They don't do innordinate amounts of psychedelic drugs. (Although loads of other drugs are consumed). They live fast lives in a fast passed society where instant satisfaction is de rigeure.
Traveling is much easier and cheaper and no more something reserved to the adventurous and bold explorers of new territories. It is hard to find remote places where captilalism and its selfish greed driven culture hasn't affected things at least a bit.
We have lost our innocence. We are living in an age of (alledged) global terrorism. We are much more aware of how multinational corporations are raping mother earth and entire nations and their inhabitants. We know the people running the show are mostly corrupt, stupid or both at the same time.
We have global warming yet governments are more interested in their short term political and financial gain than addressing this very real problem. We all know oil is running out and poluting our planet yet, instead of spending billions on renewable and sustainable energy, governments prefer to spend billions on invading souvereign nations to control their oil fields. (Or control our drug intake).
Is it safe to let our minds wander too much when we might end up in a mental nightmare rather than a beautifull dream?
Also, there are many more things to distract us and compete for our limited attention. Ten million TV channels, a quadrilion websites, music films and videos downloadable at the click of a button. It is at the same much harder and easier to get bored.
Much harder because there is so much to entertain us yet so easy because it is all the same relentless crap.
Not so long ago, if you were bored you would have to entertain yourself by reading a book, going out to meet your friends, wonder into nature or spend hours in the studio tweaking sounds to psychedelic delight.
It pays much less to entertain yourself because entertainement is now so cheap. You just turn on the TV and zone-out or go to YouTube and watch some silly video of some silly person doing something stupid.
The type of stimulation has changed too. Just look at the way that TV programs are made these days. They are fast and intense rather than stylish, moody, emotional, thought provoking and well thought out. They are delivered in small doses intercut by loud in your face commercials pimping the latest products of the day.
Entertainement has become more about brainless hypnotic overstimulation that tends to numb you rather than titillate your brain into new ideas and thoughts. You hardly have time to even use your imagination while watching TV because if you let your mind dream off for too long you have probably missed half the plot of the TV show you are watching.
Also the tools we use to create our sonic dreams have changed. We have thousands of ready made VST presets and samples that make it very hard even for the most dedicated not to use or abuse. It is much less satisfying to spend hours tweaking your hardware synth to come up with that original killer sound when you know that the kid next door will install the latest version of Absynth or whatever and kick your sonic butt in a matter of seconds.
The expectations of new producers has also changed. It took (and usualy still takes) years to get to a professional level of production but kids now want instant results and instant releases. The obvious way to achieve this is to use all those easily available tools and copy any ideas that seem fit.
No, I don't think that sound quality really is the problem. The world has changed and so has our music.
UnderTow
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fuc** damned right man
fullofpsygressive sounddesign / astartic lab
http://soundcloud.com/astartic-lab
http://astartic-lab.bandcamp.com/
http://sdi-lab.bandcamp.com/ |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
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Posted : Mar 12, 2007 23:51
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i will go back to what been said alot (not here tho) and even will make it personal story...
once upon a time , i was member in hardcore-punk band.
we used to come up with general idea for tune and words , then have 3 hours practice evry week in studio. on weeks before show , 3 times practice.
after many many songs and gigs , we thought we have nice metirial that can work as cd.
then we went to the studio , recording about 1/2 hour evry instrument for evry song (our songs were 3 minutes..)
now here comes the trick
after we finnished record , sound engineer made mix and mastering.
personly i was intrested alot in what he did there , since we had shit sound , but he made it actualy fat and nice.
album been realesed after more then 4 years of practice that actualy improve evrything.
here is creativity , and sound quality
one thing could make it even more quality , buying actualy better guitars ..
so lets go back to trance , full on , and what between those two... 
today the process of avrege trancer , do not contain :
knoledge how to play an instrument , or 10 together.. as a track supose to be..
any practice , cause there isnt much to practice with mouse and midi lines
multi-recordings , cause u counce just once anyway
sound engineer for mixing (not mastering!) , cause evryone know whats eq , and can do it alone
hardware instrument , cause u can d/l vst
not hard to get why most trance is shit
i think sound mixing can be part of the creation , but beside that , artists need alot of music theory , and actual idea before sitting infront of the screen for hours on hours
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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Posted : Mar 13, 2007 00:06
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On 2007-03-12 19:48, dija wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb here. In my opinion most psy is made by people who should not be called musicians. The vast majority of psy relies on technical ability and not creativity. |
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I agree that "most psy is made by people who should not be called musicians" (see below) but with respect, I disagree with your definition. The skill of a musician is to perform on a musical instrument. If you need creativity to be a musician then most orchestral players and concert pianists need to find an alternative way of describing their jobs.
If I was going to express the same idea, I might express it as 'most psy is made by technicians rather than artists'.
I think a more appropriate term to describe what producers do is 'composer'. Although technical perfomance skills are not essential for a 'traditional' composer, being able to play the piano certainly helped many (if not most) of them in the writing process to try out different ideas; in dance music we have the 'play' button, which serves the same function! (although this helps not at all with the actual writing process, for which you still need er... what was it... oh yes, creativity). What is essential for an orchestral composer is a knowledge of the capabilities of the instruments for which she is writing, and I think this can be said for dance music production too.
We're composers who produce our own compositions. Some of us are lucky enough to be musicians too. A few of us are artists in the true sense of the word, but they are outnumbered by the technicians.
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dija
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Mar 13, 2007 08:12
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I agree OOOD. I suppose someone who just plays an instrument and does not write music is a musician.
I think that technical work is a huge part of what we do but I think that the creativity and actual writing of music gets lost in that and its showing with every release packed full of 8 minute tracks that don't evolve beyond just adding more sound fx.
Its not just in psy...I see it happening in electronic music all over. I guess with computers now people can just pick it up and start making sounds and throwing them together and calling it music.
Drum n bass...theres some thats a little more than sound design but all the tracks are usually the same and revolve around one killer designed bass. Which is fine but there should be more to it.
IDM....this is a big culprit here people think you can just make a huge mess of sound and call it music. I love some IDM specifically IDM that has a melody and structured rythms.
Ambient....somewhat acceptable here although most good ambient does have some arpeggios and a little hook somewhere
Radio tunes: emo, hardcore, punk, etc etc....can't even get started on this.
I don't know all this complaining doesn't do any good. I would just like to be able to find good music without having to sift through so much crap. I love sound design, its great when an artist has melodic progressions, great rythms, very musical but also has excellent sound design. I just don't agree that entire songs and albums can be built on sound design alone. |
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RenderingRebel
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Mar 13, 2007 10:22
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There are loads of really creative psy artists in progressive psy
That is psy too, sometimes i find it even more psychedelic becouse of the diversity in the music
The genre is more broad and has more alternative styles within like electro progressive and more housy progressive etc etc. All within the psychedelic genre.
If you dont like all the cheese that comes out, just focus on different music!
Some years ago i was really into fullon but over the last few years it just has developed to be a really commerial music style.
Not in the terms of money but the music is really easy to understand and it sounds all the same.
But the progressive releases over the last few years were very diverse in style. Ofcourse it has trends aswell, but i believe alot less than fullon music
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
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40
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Posted : Mar 13, 2007 11:04
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The software DAW and vsts have put quasi best professional quality tools at the fingertips of every1. Only prob is back in the days, u had to be talented to fight your way to use those tools that were rare. Now that every1 has the tools, traditional rarity of tools is not a factor in the selection of those who actually have the drive and knowledge going on, from those that dont deserve to.
Not that ubiquitous pro software is a bad thing. But I think that education is definitely a weakness in the market. Also these days, instead of making a sound u can just flip through a samples folder to add spice. Which is a great timesaving tool, but when every1 does it, then everything sounds the same.
So to remedy the problem every1 must learn music theory, and every1 must learn synth theory, and every1 must give up their dayjob to become pro. |
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Saf
Started Topics :
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210
Posted : Mar 13, 2007 12:35
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Most people I know who aren't into psytrance describe the entire genre along the lines of:
'Annoying sound fx and arpeggios played over the exact same drum and bass sequence'
or
'Ten billion remixes of the same song'
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