| Author
|
Soset's manifesto
|
ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
Posts :
783
Posted : Dec 13, 2004 23:45
|
Quote:
|
..just not the vocal minority of hardcore "dark/Evil" trance fans and producers that hang out on this board, and bully you relentlesly for speaking up.. what some people would call the unflattering truth.
|
|
Brett- i am not a Dark or Evil trance producer. I am a human being, an artist, and a thinking critic too. I can accept informed critique and advice. When you attack what you do not understand you risk breaking some beautiful fragile things. Please make an effort to inform yourself and get off your bad trip of thinking half the art in the trance scene is evil or bad or dark or whatever. The Mistresses of Evil probably just invented their name to bug YOU- and they really mean it like inverse slang- you know how "bad" became good, and Wicked was good for awhile in the 80's...
anyway- i make some very soft melodic music too so its not fair at all to dismiss an artist based on some of their output. Allow people to be 3dimensional and please leave the witchhunt out of this .
thanks. |
|
|
djfanboy
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
102
Posted : Dec 13, 2004 23:56
|
...just a WHOLE lot of worms...
'scuse me...
(rolls up sleeves and begins trying to scoop worms up)
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew! slimy! |
|
|
|
flavorself
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
12
Posted : Dec 14, 2004 00:45
|
ocelot -
“..Dopey obviously knows something about the NY scene and referred to specifics”
You seem to be a little confused. Actually, dopey486 said that he had “not been to the parties you speak of in NY”, so he was actually doing the opposite, speaking about generalities, rather than specifics.
“Dopey seemed to be saying, to me, that consumerist attitudes need some tempering when applied to trance.”
Exactly where has anyone described trance parties as consumer items? It is only by viewing them as commodities that a consumerist attitude can be said to exist. What has been questioned is the definition of the nature of some of the parties. In fact, to describe a party as underground, when actually it is intended that it be a commercial venture, suggests to me that the responsibility for the commercialization of the party lies other than with the “whining consumer”. And it’s refreshing to hear some honesty from you about how you regard those of us who simply attend the parties for fun. I’m sure we will all remember your attitude the next time that you play.
“There is no little laboratory where all the elite organizers and artists just sit there planning out what they are going to dish out to the scene.”
Perhaps they should do a little of that, at least that would mean that some thought had gone into it. Obviously some of the organizers do exactly that, and this is the reason that their parties turn out so well.
“The parties and music and art are created by US for US with US in mind”
“…there is no us and them- there is only us. “
“I don't give a SHIT about your opinion unless you are helping to co-create our future- if you are merely a whining consumer then FUCK OFF.”
Make your mind up for goodness sake. First, there is no US or THEM, and then there suddenly is a THEM, but only those who YOU label as whining consumers, although we would perhaps prefer to be described as discriminating human beings. You call us derogatory names and then say that you don’t care what we think and finish it off by telling us that you don’t even want us at your parties by telling us to “FUCK OFF”. This really tells us exactly what you think of everyone who doesn’t agree with your views, and, of anyone who doesn’t have the same taste in music. This illustrates precisely the problems in the trance community, that have been described in this thread, so thank you very much for making any further description unnecessary.
“and NO!!!!! not all opinions are equal and not all are valid.”
Incidentally, this is not what I said. What I actually said was “We are all equally valid”. This is a totally different thing altogether, if you bothered to think about it.
“INFORMED opinions are worth more than UNINFORMED opinions”
So now we all have to provide our “trance” qualifications before you will listen to us. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
“to then have someone just trash it because their right to trash it is enshrined in some stupid ideal of all opinions being equal - well thats dumb and i don't agree with that...”
Fortunately, I don’t have to argue this with you. Others have covered this far better than I ever could. I would point you at Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) …
“All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.”
|
|
|
|
ocelot
ocelot
Started Topics :
94
Posts :
783
Posted : Dec 14, 2004 01:12
|
Quote:
|
And it’s refreshing to hear some honesty from you about how you regard those of us who simply attend the parties for fun. I’m sure we will all remember your attitude the next time that you play.
|
|
1) are you threatening me with a boycott of my artistic work because you don't like what I think of consumer minded trancers?
I guess you can- I think thats beyond pathetic but OK if you insist. Maybe you should stop trying to rip me apart and make something instead. get a life.
2) Your quotes are mistaken- i have edited my original post (less than 5 minutes after writing it). Please read my public post and quote from that.
3) i will repeat- there is no US there is no THEM- this is the consumerist concept- a THEM making reality for US.
the trance scene is DIY- all done by people who love trance. there is no big corporate money involved- REALLY.
If you don't like a party your fellow tranceheads designed and executed, bear in mind that that didn't HAVE to do it and that if they didn't do this party the scene would be poorer for their NOT having done it.
Nobody has ever made a pile of money with psychedelic trance. No artist I know even lives completely from trance. I don't think it will or should stay this way forever but to characterize this scene as some kind of scene where vampiric organizers and artists are laughing as they screw over the hapless party goer- this is false.
i firmly stand behind what i said- reread it if you must. I really hope you are not threatening me or trying to harm my musical career in any way Flavorself. What I said does not warrant your personal attacks.
|
|
|
|
slyman604
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
263
Posted : Dec 14, 2004 02:09
|
ocelot is right on the money.
What this thread comes down to is the consumerist attitude of being at a restaurant and telling the waiter "my food is cold, what are YOU going to do to fix it".
Psytrance is far to small here for that mentality to be of any use at all. |
|
|
|
soset
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
83
Posted : Dec 14, 2004 03:27
|
Ocelot-
"Soset is full of consumerist attitude.
She acts like she's ordering a triple-nonfat-latte at $tarbux... "
Ocelot, Let's just move on and discuss something more fruitful. If not, why don't you just start your own thread with what you think of the trance parties, or communities or artists or perhaps one containing what you think about soset.  As I said earlier, I am not interested in stupid judgments and twisting words, but you seem to keep hanging on to that.
what's the problem?
|
|
|
|
jhanna
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
178
Posted : Dec 14, 2004 04:11
|
|
im with ocelot all the way! seems like u are all full of whinning , ohh thats too dark trance, ohh we dont like these vibe. you better ask urself what are u doing to make what u want reallity, if u like parties just for fun, go to a club man, im sure there are tons over there that play what u want serve what u want and stuff... so stop the whiinnig and do something! |
|
|
|
Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Dec 14, 2004 06:42
|
Im w. Ocelot too. Flavorself makes some valid criticisms of his words, such as there being no US or THEM but then talking about people in ways that does distinguish them as "other". On the whole though, Ocelot is right on with his comparison to ordering a double late at starbuck, which one expects to be made to specification.
There is so much productive about this discussion lets all just try to stay cool and not insult or threaten eachother... |
|
|
|
DiMiTry
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
70
Posts :
2299
Posted : Dec 14, 2004 07:11
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-12-14 06:42, Psycosmo wrote:
There is so much productive about this discussion lets all just try to stay cool and not insult or threaten eachother... |
|
you trippin.. i haven't heard ANYTHING productive in this discussion, just a bunch of big words and needless insults and accusations.
I dare all 3 or 4 of you who have been writing long messages in this thread to actually organize an event following the ideals you've been talking about. Until I see that, this discussion to me will be nothing but empty fluff, and utterly boring to boot.
And please, don't tell me you need another 12 pages to figure out what you want to do. Maybe it's better then not to do it on the forum, since lately all I've been seeing here is negativity. It seems that quite a few people took offense to how you present your point of view. A motherload of wisdom can be lost if you don't know how to communicate it properly.
my 2 cents
|
|
|
|
jyoty
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
108
Posted : Dec 14, 2004 07:46
|
haha DiMiTry ur the man ! u r right on with everything u wrote...
one more thing i might add is that another reason y this discussion wont go anywhere, is cuz u retards don't realise that while you may like different genres of trance, you all want the SAME exact thing out of a trance party... and that is what (i think) we're really talking about here!
|
|
|
|
Psycosmo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
42
Posts :
787
Posted : Dec 14, 2004 08:07
|
|
It is productive because any argument or discussion forces people to think. This discussion isnt everything I want in terms of discussion (see my trance family values thread for that) but it took off more than my thread so I particpate. And I am serious about the idea of trying to work for the ideals I talk about. I mean what I say and I am willing to take resposibility for it in real life as well as online. So if you know me (James is my name) feel free to bring this up with me next time you see me... |
|
|
|
arrya
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
29
Posts :
280
Posted : Dec 14, 2004 10:35
|
Soset,
I would greatly appreciate it if you could answer a couple of my questions to you, in the hpoe that it might provide this abomination of a thread ( imho ) with some direction ..
but first ..
let me introduce you to an acronym that we trance people like to throw around with careless abandon - PLUR. Hang the Peace and Love, you've done a great job of muddying the waters on that respect ..
However, for the sake of whatever Unity and Respect is left in this thread ( and i'm sure some of the more intelligent members of this community still afford you the respect) , could you please stop directing each post at an individual, almost invariably with some malice and scorn (almost).
One earns the right to voice an opinion in a community, and your posts that seem to come with a dose of fiery argument have NOT EARNED YOU THAT RIGHT YET, with the exception of the meandering missive at the start of this thread.
i'm sorry for being so harsh, but once again, i stand by everything i've said, especially the fact that one earns a voice here - one doesn't simply start screaming in an effort to be the loudest one heard.
1. you are obviously quite concerned for the future of trance in new york, especially at the hands of the tdc crew. specific parties and organizers aside, have you made an effort to meet any established members of the nw york community and discuss this with them face to face, or even the producers ?
2.would you care to make that effort ?Arguing about the fundamental issues of trance on the forum could take us to the middle of the next millenuium with little or no result, as this thread will show. towards that end, i'm at most parties that happen in this city and would love to talk to you - parties can actually be a great place to discuss this - imusually the funny looking brown boy who has had too much to smoke 
3. if you're not willing to throw a party ( your rather angry response to poor ghregonearth's [dude - i love your musicc !!] rather innocent, well meaning post), then what are you willing to do ?
enact change in the community around you? what does that entail ? a leader ..
what do leader's do ..
talk abrasively ?
just talk ?
i've asked the questions, but even i don't see where the answers will lead us .. except deeper into soset's mind ..
oh, and please, lay off dopey576 - he's been a member of a community as have i, since our formative years, and i can vouch for the fact that (cognitive misconceptions aside  ) he knows what he is talking about.  paagal power .. |
|
|
|
soset
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
83
Posted : Dec 14, 2004 15:58
|
arrya -
"However, for the sake of whatever Unity and Respect is left in this thread ( and i'm sure some of the more intelligent members of this community still afford you the respect) , could you please stop directing each post at an individual, almost invariably with some malice and scorn (almost)."
That works both ways, most of those people have not even bothered to write about what is said. They have simply made some assumptions and then set off at high speed in that direction.
"One earns the right to voice an opinion in a community, ..."
Why does anyone need to "earn" the right? Is that not part of belonging to any community? Does one have to earn the right to voice an opinion as a human being?
"you are obviously quite concerned for the future of trance in new york..."
No, I really am not. I would just like to go to some decent parties. I am pointing out what I see in the hope that everyone will listen and consider what they can do to make things better.
"would you care to make that effort (..to meet with the organisers, etc..)?"
You still don't get it, I am talking to you, everyone. And most of you can't even have a decent discussion in this forum. What would it add to meet face-to-face?
".. Arguing about the fundamental issues of trance.."
I have been talking about the fundamentals of communities. You have to understand these fundamentals before you can apply them to a specific instance, like a trance community. There are some very basic issues here; honesty, willingness to listen and to exchange ideas/opinions, and all of these without anger or judgement. In a community, we all need each other, none of us exist in isolation.
As an example. what makes lovers, lovers? A common interest, LOVE.
"if you're not willing to throw a party ( your rather angry response to poor ghregonearth.."
I simply said "do you really think that I am interested in organising parties? " because I didn't actually say anything about organising parties. Again, I have been trying to point out what seems to be missing from the so-called community.
Rather than picking out my words wouldn't it be more interesting if people simply tried to discuss what community means to them. I would be very interested to hear other people's opinions, if they could refrain from making assumptions about me. Perhaps, after we have reached some conclusions about communities, then we could try to apply those conclusions to the trance community.
How about everyone tries to post without mentioning the words, "organiser", "music", "dj", "trance", "party"???
|
|
|
|
Justin Chaos
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
117
Posts :
3086
Posted : Dec 14, 2004 17:24
|
So comunity it's the name of the game ,huh???
OK,then I been living in comunities for quite a long time and sharing time in Sannyasi comunities,mayan callendar followers,human design,graduated students from krishnamurti and/or Osho insitutes and bla bla bla....
You know what????
I'm sick of it,I'm sick of fake gurus,I just listen to my inner voice and I enjoy my self as much as possible,if anyone wants to come with me is very very welcome.
I used to say many of the words of soset,absolutely convinced.
Life is easy if you stay focused,for example was one of my favourite phrases....I remember I was reading herman hesse in those days,anyway.
I'm sick of it all,I have all I need,i have my self I'm sick of people who thinks hat they know something that we don't.
It's not a problem being convinced about something but try to convince the rest of the world convinced that you own the truth it's just pathetic.
I bet you know what I'm talking about Soset.
All in all every single theorie it's great,even comunism if you think about it,but you know what,a perfect dream becoming reality stops being perfect only coz of the fact that is not a dream anymore,we're human beings and it's impossible to change our nature,our inner nature,even if we do as much as we can to control those instincts the instincts are there to remind us who we are.
My advise:
Beware of the fake gurus,take what you need for your development,but listen to your inner voice and...LAUGH,LAUGH AS MUCH AS YOU CAN!!!
My fake plants died, because I did not pretend to water them. |
|
|
|
Trick
Inactive User
Started Topics :
16
Posts :
375
Posted : Dec 14, 2004 17:39
|
damn the scene in america is lacking in good vibes
|
|
|
|
|
