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Song structures
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Conny
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
224
Posts :
149
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 02:04
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Just wonder if anyone has or knows where to find information about song structures in progressive and psy trance.
Buildup, breakdowns and that stuff.
Regards Conny
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 02:16
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 02:59
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Conny, take a track that you like, load into your sequencer, use the section tool to create sections, and name them accordingly. a good idea can be to analyse the tension and release of the track, where does it holds most tension and where does it release it,
did it build up enough tension before it released it, was anything too lengthy... analyse all this to your advantage...
also maybe analyse diffierent music to get new ideas that can fit in psychedelic dance music..
also why not checkout amzon.coms book section to see if you can find a book on the subject...
Good luck
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Meta
Meta/Boomslang
Started Topics :
24
Posts :
1045
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 03:16
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If you want other people to DJ your songs, make sure that your tracks 'phrases' are 32 beats long. That is, there should be 32 beats between cymbal crashes (or multiples of 32).
Many artists, even some big name released artists, flub this alot. When you ingore this structure and have crashes, pauses, or breaks randomly, a home listener would never notice, but when someone is mixing with it, it makes it sound like the DJ cannot count or is fucking up and not mixing properly, it's really irritating. Melicia and Safi Connection used to be fucking horrible about this in some of their older tracks, I'm not sure about newer stuff.
Anyway, counting 32 beat phrases is one of the first things you learn DJing to make it so your tracks overlap and kick in together.
Listen to tracks you like - you'll notice the vast majority of them adhere to this structure, and that drum fills/pauses/whooshes etc come in at the end of this 32 beat phrase. Songs that don't adhere to this structure don't get played, or only get played by DJs that don't care if their sets sound very tight.
 http://soundcloud.com/aeon604
http://www.metaekstasis.com/
http://the1134.com/ |
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phobium
Phobium
Started Topics :
14
Posts :
718
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 03:28
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Quote:
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On 2005-03-23 03:16, Aeon wrote:
If you want other people to DJ your songs, make sure that your tracks 'phrases' are 32 beats long. That is, there should be 32 beats between cymbal crashes (or multiples of 32).
Many artists, even some big name released artists, flub this alot. When you ingore this structure and have crashes, pauses, or breaks randomly, a home listener would never notice, but when someone is mixing with it, it makes it sound like the DJ cannot count or is fucking up and not mixing properly, it's really irritating.
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Isn't that what seperates a good dj from a bad one? Knowing the music you play and being able to piece it together?
Back to the topic ... Do whatever you think sounds good. Don't get to caught up in formulas 
________________________
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http://phobium.bandcamp.com/
________________________ |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 03:32
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The 32-beat (or 8-bar, as another way of counting it) thing is only vital as such in intros and outros, where the DJ will be mixing. You can fuck around as much as you like (and please do! Continuous robotic 8-bar phrases all the way through a track can get boring after a while) in the body of the tune and the only people you'll confuse are the people dancing to it. A little surprise now and then can be a very good thing, as long as it's done with finesse and good taste.
As for tracks that don't adhere strictly to an 8-bar structure not getting played... that's just not true.
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Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Surrender
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
506
Posts :
5388
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 03:56
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agree with Colin - Cosma never adhered to that stuff - a bitch to mix - but i dont know people who skipped on cosma tracks.
about thr 8bar thing - this is something that comes kinda naturally even the breaks are 8 bars.... or 4 bars... "On the other hand, you have different fingers."
http://myspace.com/gadimon |
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 08:11
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Yeah through away all formulas and do something creative. It just to have sound good to u then it is ok.
Don't listen to this 32bar crap, or to any other formulated structures.
Why do u want to make music? To express urself? Then express urself
Signature |
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Meta
Meta/Boomslang
Started Topics :
24
Posts :
1045
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 08:12
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Well, I suppose a flood of "Don't put your rules on my music, man!" responses were as inevitable as the tides... Hee hee!
Hmm I never remember having that trouble with Cosma tacks.
And Colin, I said they don't get played or only get played when people don't care. I myself have played plenty of one of the mentioned Melicia tracks in sets because I really liked the song at the time, but it always really really irritated me. But when I would play sets that I was more 'concerned' about being technical or whatever, I'm sorry to say there are certain artists I just make a habit of avoiding.
DJs are a dime a dozen and people, and other DJS, are quick to judge them harshly sometimes. If you play stuff that makes you sound like you're not paying attention or you're not at your best, it's just not good. I'm not saying music that doesn't follow the rigid formula is bad, but as I said originaly, that's just a good guideline if you want other people to play your music.
I'm all for creativity or whatever guys, but don't forget that DJing this music is a huge part of its presentation to the listeners. I knew people would jump all over that as soon as I talked about big bad 'RULES' in psychedelic music, they're not unbreakable laws, but certain minimum levels of structure are just a courtesy to the DJs that are promoting your music. If you don't care so much about that, go nuts and do whatever.
Same thing with 3/4 time - very interesting rhythmic changeup, totally sucks for DJs if it's at the beginning... argh...
http://soundcloud.com/aeon604
http://www.metaekstasis.com/
http://the1134.com/ |
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missing-link
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
30
Posts :
108
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 10:24
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Quote:
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On 2005-03-23 02:59, New Era Scientist wrote:
Conny, take a track that you like, load into your sequencer, use the section tool to create sections, and name them accordingly. a good idea can be to analyse the tension and release of the track, where does it holds most tension and where does it release it,
did it build up enough tension before it released it, was anything too lengthy... analyse all this to your advantage...
also maybe analyse diffierent music to get new ideas that can fit in psychedelic dance music..
also why not checkout amzon.coms book section to see if you can find a book on the subject...
Good luck
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thats a bloody good idea.. |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 18:10
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Meta
Meta/Boomslang
Started Topics :
24
Posts :
1045
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 19:47
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HA! No, the Ambient Mix animal lives on... in my radio shows when I'm not paying attention and answer the phone/IM instead of mixing properly. Along with it's cousin, the 2-bar quickmix. Ouch. Not often though kids, tune in.
Anyhoo Conny, that load-into-a-sequencer is indeed a good idea, I think you'll see the 32 & 64 beat "loop-length" phenom for yourself that way. And yeah, depending on who you listen to, you'll perhaps notice some other people bucking that trend.
http://soundcloud.com/aeon604
http://www.metaekstasis.com/
http://the1134.com/ |
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br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 19:47
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Ok, here's my opinion.
The best breakdown is the one that is just confusing enough such that every dancer in the room fucks it up except that one kid who's heard the song once or twice. If it's still fucking people up after numerous plays then you're just a psycho programmer, and if everyone can dance to it perfectly the first time it's played, it's a bore!
And what's wrong with formulas? Trance is trance. It has some rigid parameters, some vague rules, as well as some regions of total liberty. If it didn't have some predictable structure though, it wouldn't be called trance, it'd be called experimental. And unfortunately, that name is already taken by another equally valid genre, known as experimental. Makes perfect sense. 
LET TRANCE BE TRANCE PEOPLE |
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 21:49
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Formulas absolutly ok and nesscary, but it is just bullsh*t to produce a track in way that it is easy to mix by a dj.
If i want a break after the first 3 beats i just do it.
Signature |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Mar 23, 2005 23:51
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intersting, i have never see things like that , i usally count the bars for breaks and all the things , i ll try to do it as you said, but i know lot of killers tracks are often very predictable for the dancers ,that way even without knowing the tracks they know something is gona happen in 4 or 8 or... bars and it have a very good effect on the dancefloor if it s well done , but these tracks have a short life...maybe you see what i mean. |
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