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Song structure
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Lucidity
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
40
Posted : Sep 26, 2013 14:52:25
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Hi there! 
Was wondering if anyone has any tips regarding song structure? I know this is purely up to personal taste and genre etc, but I always find myself getting stuck when it comes to this. I usually create all my sounds in a 16 or 32 bar loop, adding as much as I can, and then laying them all out once I'm done.. Yes? No? Advice
Problem is I never really know how to lay it out to make the energy flow smoothly without becoming boring or repetitive
Anything anyone could add would be greatly appreciated
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Fakso
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
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179
Posted : Sep 26, 2013 15:25
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I do the same but my loops are more of 8 bars and less
anyway build up and then POW! then reduce and build up again  followed by a breakdown is quite common and a good solution to keep the listener attracted, techno with few tracks works well like this, it's still more repetitive than progressive but that's what it is
When you have your blocks than change them and leave things out for 8 bars etc.
in lots of techno the drums/percs are build this way and keep the interest thus avoid boringness, but keep in mind that techno relies heavily on the drum work most of the time which is not so in progressive but could be a new appeal to work more with drums and keep interest with alternating drum/perc structure
sum: leave out and add again elements more "complex"
an element that appears 4 times in a track for 16/32 bars is better than appearing 2 times for 64 bars maybe, so it does not get boring so fast, like you give the listener a little bit of that nice shaker loop and whoops take the drive away just to add it later back in and push the listener once again because "ahh that shaker is coming back again, thank god, makes me give everything one more time because of the drive again"
what I found out works nice is, e.g: shaker loop but no hihats for let's say 16 bars then shaker stop but hihats in again without a break or something just alternate the blocks/loops right https://soundcloud.com/noordzee-laborant |
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COMET SHELL
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
50
Posts :
577
Posted : Sep 26, 2013 17:14
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i start with a loop too and make lots of elements and fill it out and (try) to get a mix, then make a basic structure with what i have made (not very long, maybe 2 minutes) then i listen from the start and add new elements so it flows, kind of build it as i go through the track, like some builds or one shot fx and pads till the 2 minute loop sounds like it flows well. i then go one to make a main lead or break and intro using elements iv made and make new ones to fit it all together as welll as i can, and then the track sort of writes its self after this stage. i then export it on to cd and listen to it in the car on my way to work a few times and make mental notes about what i need to change about the mix and structure. i find listening in my car stereo really helpfull because i know the sound well and im not watching the track on my daw so you can really feel if it has a good flow or if it needs changing. this is just how i do my tracks, i hope it helps |
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Midnight Sun
ProtoDrive
Started Topics :
91
Posts :
529
Posted : Sep 26, 2013 17:29
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One and only tip for song structures: Stop asking about how to do your music! YOU ARE SUPOSED TO BE A CREATIVE ARTIST. If not, you can always quit music and do something else. Music it's not supposed to be a formula, its art.
ProtoDrive https://soundcloud.com/protodrive |
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Fakso
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
179
Posted : Sep 26, 2013 18:26
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Quote:
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On 2013-09-26 17:29, Midnight Sun wrote:
Music it's not supposed to be a formula, its art.
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"Hey I want to paint a surrealism picture, what are basics to craft something that could be called surrealism"
"Man do what you want, it's art"
Music is not a formula but it can be made via hundreds of formulas, you can even discover them by yourself and I'm sure every artist works with formulas, made up by oneself or seen/heard from others
It's just a way of production/crafting an art product, this way can change alot during the "career", I don't see what's wrong with asking what others do, can work or cannot. simple
If you want to make classical music you won't get yourself an electrc guitar and a steel drum, nor do you get yourself a synthesizer when you want the sound of a guitar
by your definition art could be everything and even formulas that do not let you any freedom
pretty paradox
https://soundcloud.com/noordzee-laborant |
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Nomad Moon
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
134
Posts :
1516
Posted : Sep 26, 2013 19:01
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Midnight Sun
ProtoDrive
Started Topics :
91
Posts :
529
Posted : Sep 26, 2013 20:51
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Quote:
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On 2013-09-26 18:26, Fakso wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-09-26 17:29, Midnight Sun wrote:
Music it's not supposed to be a formula, its art.
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"Hey I want to paint a surrealism picture, what are basics to craft something that could be called surrealism"
"Man do what you want, it's art"
Music is not a formula but it can be made via hundreds of formulas, you can even discover them by yourself and I'm sure every artist works with formulas, made up by oneself or seen/heard from others
It's just a way of production/crafting an art product, this way can change alot during the "career", I don't see what's wrong with asking what others do, can work or cannot. simple
If you want to make classical music you won't get yourself an electrc guitar and a steel drum, nor do you get yourself a synthesizer when you want the sound of a guitar
by your definition art could be everything and even formulas that do not let you any freedom
pretty paradox
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You didn't got the point at all, sure he can learn about how to do stuff with instruments, but asking others to tell you how to do YOUR STUFF is just ridiculous. A question only posers would ask.. Maybe you guys should be doing something else if you can't figure out how to compose something that comes from your inside.. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just very dissapointed with this kind of "modern thinking" about art, very mechanic..
ProtoDrive https://soundcloud.com/protodrive |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Sep 26, 2013 21:09
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lucidity - song structure comes from composition. and composition is a journey. Think of what journey you want to go on, then separate it into themes, those will be your structures. Connect them in the way that a journey would connect those themes.
If you dont know how to construct those structures or transitions, then you should listen to how other artists bring about those images. foreground vs background, contrast vs continuity, repetition vs unpredictability, to balance and symmetrify or not, harmony vs monotony, static vs dynamic, groovy vs autistic, chromatic or bitonal vs a simple scale, noisy vs silent. And most importantly compositional integrity without contradiction. less is more.
As you can see, its quite a rainbow and the better you notice how these affect you in the practical world, the better you can put them together to replicate the emotions in your music. Artists use all these to remind their listeners of these emotions. |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Sep 26, 2013 21:14
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Good post Bukboy! I always find it hard to talk about composition, much easier to just sit down and flow... then something else takes over and before I know it there is another structure, you have put it quite aptly in this one! Except, in my best moments it never seems to be the mind where this comes from, rather my own depth, or some state beyond the mind... but one has to use the mind to explain this process and you have done that very well...
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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COMET SHELL
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
50
Posts :
577
Posted : Sep 26, 2013 21:26
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your right about it being up to the artist to be creative, some of the best music is when an artist breaks rules of song structure. but there is a basic structure psytrance and most other types of music, intro, build, break and end etc. i think Lucidity wants to know how to get the track to flow in a nice way.
Lucidity i would have a listen to some tracks that you think flow well and study the sounds and how they build and glue the track together. i cant think of a good way to explain this, but some sounds need other sounds before them to kind of introduce them in a way, like a one shot with a long delay then bandpass the delay tail to build up to another sound and so on, but dont repeat it, and in the next bit come up with something diffrent.
also dont force it, i find some days i can sit and make music for a few hours and it just flows.....and other days i just sit infront of flstudio and nothing flows or works however much you i try. dont force it |
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knocz
Moderator
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
1151
Posted : Sep 26, 2013 22:18
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Quote:
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On 2013-09-26 21:09, bukboy wrote:
lucidity - song structure comes from composition. and composition is a journey. Think of what journey you want to go on, then separate it into themes, those will be your structures. Connect them in the way that a journey would connect those themes.
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This is just about it.. however we must be subjective while responding to such a question.
What I just want to add is you're on a never ending journey to learn more and more, always trying to make something better and greater and with more emotions. Since you are always learning, you'll eventually know more than you do today, which will impel you to make something better, and if you have good habits you'll be making more and more music. I don't know if I'll ever be able to write my requiem, but I try every single time.
There may be tons of formulas and thousands of books on the subject, but then again there are always those ones who break the formulas and make it work. Try to learn some formulas, to invent other ones, to break as many as you can and to forget about all of them in the end.
Super Banana Sauce http://www.soundcloud.com/knocz |
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Lucidity
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
40
Posted : Sep 28, 2013 11:46
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@Fakso : "ahh that shaker is coming back again, thank god.." HAHAHA. Thanks Fakso
@COMET SHELL : Yea I normally just look away from the screen and listen, knowing all the elements I've created, I listen for what I would 'expect' to hear next. Thanks Comet Shell
@Midnight Sun : Congratulations on being an asshole
@bukboy : Spot on bukboy! I normally bring in a track or two I think of when making my track, and then see how the other artist did theirs.. what they brought in when, etc. I'm always always listening to other artist tracks for flow and structure
@knocz : Never ending journey of learning! I basically sit every night for like 6 hours doing something in my DAW. More interested in what not to do, teaches me more
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Midnight Sun
ProtoDrive
Started Topics :
91
Posts :
529
Posted : Sep 28, 2013 18:00
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davinski
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
119
Posted : Sep 28, 2013 19:35
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wat is the use for this forum then? if you ask question, you get answer that you cannot ask questions!!!!
that' surreal hehe
boom
access virus ti,waldorf blofeld,korg microkorg xl, roland sh-201, clavia nord wave, korg kaoss pad 3, DSI Tempest, hohner something... |
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Lucidity
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
40
Posted : Sep 29, 2013 12:31
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BOOM! Haha |
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