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Some thoughts on using samples and name with "drugs" in music and permission for parties
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 10:01
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Let me put a line under this.
Good unarguable Reasons given to put this samples and names in the future:
- For some they are an essential part of their artistic freedom and their expression (not many said so though).
- For many it is, not mattering the essentiality of the samples and names, important to protect their artistic freedom in any case.
- Some say its not the artists responsibilty what effect his music can have
- The positive effect of leaving the samples is too small or too questionable for some.
- The influence of such samples and names is questionable, such press possibly just a single occurance.
- such samples and names could have positive efx on listeners, kids by educating drugs use and/or showing its essence. Pulling attention on some drugs rather then others.
- Some say it could be a loss for PsyTrance as aculture not to have those names and samples
- For some, not mattering the size of sacrifice, adaption is no option, they choose conflict in any case.
Good reasons given not to use them anymore:
- Such samples and names have been quoted by press and TV to support a bad image of the scene.
- Some countries have serious problems in having any size of events, and every little piece (especially if its black on white) which adds up to a bad image can be used by authorities in discussion as proove, whereas the rest is just talk.
- Some say, an Artist has to question the effect of his work and therefore act careful, responsible.
- Such samples and names probably could also have negative effect on some listeners, kids f.i. not to take drugs serious enough.
- Since there are legitimate doubts about the positive effect of those samples and names and for many they are no essential part for their music, especially those who don't essentially need them may consider giving up their artistic freedom in this point. It may be a good and easy compromise.
- The samples are perceived as overused in Psytrance by many anyway. Sometimes regulations lead to new creativity.
- Some say it would not be a loss for PsyTrance, the positive possibilites weight more.
- Even if the positive effect is in doubt, if the sacrifice is close to 0 for someone, why not sacrifice it for the possibility?
Just listing  Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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astrotec
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
193
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 13:17
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maybe you should ditch psytrance and become an anti-drugs social worker. 
only messin.
I agree though that it doesn't have a good effect on some listeners, which obviously isn't a good thing, in a way its a kind of peer pressure and drug advertisement and is of no make benefit for the listener or creator or no 1.
but still, people will still do it. |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 13:45
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subconsciousmind, I'm going to give this whole thing a slightly different twist: I am 99% sure that the journalists that made that report on the news made up their mind about the psytrance scene first and THEN and only THEN decided to demonstrate their views by quoting track names and samples in the music.
This is basicly what everyone here is getting at. You keep saying that the samples are easy prey for such journalists and are an easy way to demonstrate such negative views to the public at large. Frankly, the samples might actually be a blessing in disguise.
What would they have done to demonstrate their views if the samples and track names weren't up for grabs? They would probably have looked for the most fucked-up people at the party and shown footage of them instead. That kind of image has a much deeper impact on viewers than words can ever have. (And rightly so).
But anyway, the main point is that the samples are just used to demonstrate a point of view that is _already_ formed by the journalists (and society at large).
You keep telling people to read and have an open mind (in a pretty insulting and condescending manner btw) but you are the one that can't seem to read all the arguments being presented against your point of view.
You say that leaving out the samples is a small detail. I say they are an utterly irrelevant detail when, as others have mentioned, there are some people that are so trashed at parties that they look like retards escaped from the asylum.
Having said that, most drug reference samples suck donkey arse because they are so lame. So artists, do yourselves a favour, using drug samples blatantly will most likely make you look like an unimaginative retard. 
UnderTow
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 14:12
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On 2007-08-21 09:34, subconsciousmind wrote:
Man give it up. Again you are basing arguments on NOTHING. mere assumptions, prejustices, interpretations and claims of things been done or written, which never have been done or written. |
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The more you try not to forget what it was important for you to forget the more you'll be aware of not knowing what it is that you have to remember to forget in the first place.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 14:24
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On 2007-08-21 13:45, UnderTow wrote:
What would they have done to demonstrate their views if the samples and track names weren't up for grabs? They would probably have looked for the most fucked-up people at the party and shown footage of them instead. That kind of image has a much deeper impact on viewers than words can ever have. (And rightly so).
But anyway, the main point is that the samples are just used to demonstrate a point of view that is _already_ formed by the journalists (and society at large).
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I have well understood, and never denied that. Its just not the point.
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You say that leaving out the samples is a small detail. I say they are an utterly irrelevant detail when, as others have mentioned, there are some people that are so trashed at parties that they look like retards escaped from the asylum.
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I don't deny and never denieed that too, whereas it is just a CLAIM you make. And thats not the point as well, since I never said that avoiding the names and samples would solve all problems.. all I say is they are a uneccessiry thing which can easily avoided.
I never understood, why anybody here makes such a big thing out of it..
Probably it wont help a thing, probably it will. but its so little sacrifice to try.
Still it would be so easy to avoid those samples
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Having said that, most drug reference samples suck donkey arse because they are so lame. So artists, do yourselves a favour, using drug samples blatantly will most likely make you look like an unimaginative retard.
UnderTow
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No new twist here undertow, just as many before you, you are just saying that because the detail is small, (by your claim) maybe irrelevant, and there are other things it won't make sense to avoid it.
And what I say for pages is: EVERY DETAIL is part of a whole, and not mattering its size adds up. And thats why I keep saying that people don't understand or read what I say. So haven't you undertow.
I try to put it for a last time with an example.
I'm the sort of person who walks down a street all covered with hills of rubish, but wont throw my bubblegum paper on that street even though there are burned down cars laying around. Because I know that its that sort of attitude which made that street like that. Just because all the others made far bigger mistakes there is no reason for me to make a small one. Sure, it wouldn't make a difference, but still if all had thought like me in the first place that street would be clean. And if all people start to take care of their personal details, even if they are small, things change.
The thing is one person had put a bubblegum paper, the next one too, once there was more and more rubish, people started to throw bigger things, cause they thought its just a detail.. the whole street is covered by rubish anyway.. its just one detail.. all people think like that and nobdy cleans up and you end up with the street I described.
At one point people may stop to throw small and big things and later maybe they even start to clean up, but one thing is sure, throwing another bubblegum paper wont help. The opposite: not doing it may even be a signal for others to stop and finaly clean up.
So it is in psytrance. Everybody does his little mistakes. Yopu keep on talking from THE fucked up PEOPLE. But you should think of individuums of which EACH just does a little mistake. One just throws his trash at parties, others don't know how to shit in the toilets, others take to many drugs, some make all of it, some don't organize well, some sell bad drugs.
Go to a fucked up person and tell him, that he makes the partyscene look bad in public. He will tell you, that there are so many others, he is just on 1000th of all that, he is just a detail, and if he would top to take drugs that way there would be 999 others to be photographed.
Got me?
Who is not seeeing whose point?
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 14:26
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Sorry I'm posting this again. Hope you will finally understand why I don't give in in some points:
I try to put it for a last time with an example.
I'm the sort of person who walks down a street all covered with hills of rubish, but wont throw my bubblegum paper on that street even though there are burned down cars laying around. Because I know that its that sort of attitude which made that street like that. Just because all the others made far bigger mistakes there is no reason for me to make a small one. Sure, it wouldn't make a difference, but still if all had thought like me in the first place that street would be clean. And if all people start to take care of their personal details, even if they are small, things change.
The thing is one person had put a bubblegum paper, the next one too, once there was more and more rubish, people started to throw bigger things, cause they thought its just a detail.. the whole street is covered by rubish anyway.. its just one detail.. all people think like that and nobdy cleans up and you end up with the street I described.
At one point people may stop to throw small and big things and later maybe they even start to clean up, but one thing is sure, throwing another bubblegum paper wont help. The opposite: not doing it may even be a signal for others to stop and finaly clean up.
So it is in psytrance. Everybody does his little mistakes. Yopu keep on talking from THE fucked up PEOPLE.
But you should think of individuums of which EACH just does a little mistake. One just throws his trash at parties, others don't know how to shit in the toilets, others take to many drugs, some make all of it, some don't organize well, some sell bad drugs.
Go to a fucked up person and tell him, that he makes the partyscene look bad in public. He will tell you, that there are so many others, he is just on 1000th of all that, he is just a detail, and if he would stop to take drugs that way, there would be 999 others to be photographed.
You need to understand that I look not at masses but at persons. If I see a person almost dying of drugs or throwing trash in the nature I would ask him if he sees the consequences, he would say: so what? all do it! others make far bigger mistakes!.
If I see somebody abusing drugsamples and names I tell him that this doesn't especially help, and they say: so what? there are much bigger problems.
Look, I personally don't care if 10000 do it or not or if it is a big thing or not. Its just about what YOU DO, and I DO. what WE can change in our little microcosmos.
You guy can keep telling me that OTHERS DO BIGGER MISTAKES etc. but I say we should start in our own backyard, no mattering how small and unimportant it is. Stop refering and comparing to other peoples mistakes (and evene mistakes of MASSES) in order to play down own ones. Thats no argument.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 14:35
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U guys left out one very important factor. Without drugs, psytrance is incredibly boring to listen to.
Theres millions of better things to listen to than the repetitive, production oriented instantly forgetable stuff played at most parties.
Maybe thats coz its made 4 druggies and owes its comparitively tiny success primarily to peoples need to rebel and recreate in grotesque ways which is what we're seeing.
Or maybe the music co-opted the hearts and souls of the people looking for a rebellious outlet to consume copious amounts of stuff. Unlikely I think.
In anycase no modern scene can reaally claim to be drug free, and most likely psy is victimised coz its a minority. Most people dont even know what psy is, but they know its baa-aa-aad. DOUBLE STANDARDS!!! DOUBLE STANDARDS!!!! KILLL!!!!
Point is - whether u change the samples or not, the druggies are gonna come and dance to psy hidden little minority parties. coz they offer solace and relative refuge. Hence the stigma.
And whether u change the samples or not, the music itself doesnt offer much to anyone who doesnt want to enter repetitive trancelike psychedelic states by extreme boredom in the first place. (P.S. not all psy is bad. Just the vast majority.)
Rant off - Il hand over from my ill informed poison knife blatherings to the well informed members of isra congregation. |
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
84
Posts :
981
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 14:46
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Whoa there!! thats not true at all. I love psy and listen to it because I love it, in the day, at night, when I'm driving.. I don't need drugs to enjoy it? What kind of dull repetitive beats are you listening to!
It's relatively small success can be attributed to the fact that it isn't a mainstream style, not because it isn't good music.
When has the majority of music buyers ever had any taste! Just look at chart music.
I find most drug people listen to techno anyway as its easily the most repetitive genre.
I've found no stigma attached to psytrance anywhere. But only because nobody knows what it is! It's not even mentioned in the media, it isn't even mentioned in any of the many dance music magazines that are published in the UK. So many ridiculous sub-genre styles.. but no Psy. |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 14:54
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Donno - I listen to trance all day and in my car too. seems like the djs dont like that sorta stuff.
I didnt say ALL of it was bad music.
seems like the majority of party goers have no taste either.
I Cant seem to tell the difference between techno and psy all the time these days.
Theres loads of stigma, at work I said hey dudes wanna come to a psy party? and they said hey r u a druggie, coz we dont need no druggies in this company. |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 15:29
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Quote:
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On 2007-08-21 14:24, subconsciousmind wrote:
I have well understood, and never denied that. Its just not the point.
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The point is the image of the scene making it hard to organise parties, right? So how can the way journalists, that have already made up their mind, show this scene on the news NOT be the point?
I think you've lost your own plot. 
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I don't deny and never denieed that too,
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So you are not denying that it is utterly irrelevant? The samples are just symptoms, not the problem. You seem to be missing that.
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I never said that avoiding the names and samples would solve all problems.. all I say is they are a uneccessiry thing which can easily avoided.
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Allot of people are saying that it will solve NO problems at all. You are not reading. You are stuck in a rut claiming that removing the samples will somehow help the scene however slightly. You are the one making claims and you have failed to convince anyone so far. Time for you to start reading and thinking about what people are writing.
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I never understood, why anybody here makes such a big thing out of it..
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YOU are making a big thing of it. The vast majority of people in this thread think that the samples are indeed no big deal and irrelevant. You are the one that believes they have some relevance albeit a small one.
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Still it would be so easy to avoid those samples
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Sure but it would be so easy to avoid many things it doesn't mean it helps in any way whatsoever. The fact that it is so little effort still doesn't make it a good idea.
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No new twist here undertow, just as many before you,
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The new twist that you seem to have missed entirely is that if there were no easy samples for the journalists to latch onto, they might have used much worse imagery to make their point.
I am not saying that this is definitely so but it is just as valid a guess as your claim that removing the samples will help in any way whatsoever.
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you are just saying that because the detail is small, (by your claim) maybe irrelevant, and there are other things it won't make sense to avoid it.
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No, I am not saying it is small. I am saying it is irrelevant. It is just a symptom, not the real issue.
You sound like a politician that misses the real point completely and instead of fighting crime at it's source (education, poverty, bored youths etc) they propose hanging up more CCTV cameras all over town to "fight crime". Your proposal misses the real issues.
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And what I say for pages is: EVERY DETAIL is part of a whole, and not mattering its size adds up. And thats why I keep saying that people don't understand or read what I say. So haven't you undertow.
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And I am saying that there is no point in fighting symptoms when the disease is still raging.
You need to get off your condescending high horse and be open to the possibility that the reason people are not agreeing with you isn't because people arn't reading or understanding you.
UnderTow
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astrotec
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
193
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 15:47
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subconsciousmind please don't spam the forum with double posts..... use the edit button thats what its there for |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 15:49
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undertow, why didn't you react to the important part of my post? Its starting from the point bellow your quoting and is delivering all the arguments you are asking for.. btw. Not denying you claims doesn't make them true. They are just claims, so are mine. I leave it open.
There is no illness in psytrance, there are just individuums doing things. Every single one adds up to the whole. the drugs abuser is just a symptom for the music which is to bad without drugs or the pressure in society etc. it's not working like that. Every each one of us has to do his own things.
A high horse I call to sit there and say the others are ill, we putting samples are just a symptoms...
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 16:11
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People do drugs, journalists do drugs, government apployed people do drugs.
the small amount of people that dont do drugs is silly.
Nicotine
Alcohol
Suger
Caffeine
Marijuana
just to name some of the most common drugs! not naming the poison that comes from various chemicals thats being used in our industry or just gasoline that cars and airoplanes spitout everyday. Certain chemicals that they add in food or what they spray the plants with... yeah and clothes.. the list can be made very long.
most society´s are so messed up morally that you cant believe shit of the propaganda thats beeing spread! governments making money on things that is poison for us and they dont ask us for premission and on the other side they punish us if we use drugs of free will.
howcome certain drugs are legal while some are not? who decide this? it dosent seem like its you and me that decide this.
if i want a sample in my music that says " Smoke marijuana" why is that not okej? would it be okej if i had a sample that said " Drink Alcohol" because that is accepted by the society? not that i find such samples appealing to use in my music i find the freedom to use them very important.
why should i care what the society thinks when i know that everything society preach is not true!!
i say use whatever samples you want in your music! Psypunk
if this means that psytrance events needs to be held under most discreet and secret conditions, so be it!
Sometimes i think that Pop music is far more drugoriented then psy but it brings so much money to certain "important" people that is okej.
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 16:23
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Freeflow, agree with you on most but,
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On 2007-08-21 16:11, Freeflow wrote:
if this means that psytrance events needs to be held under most discreet and secret conditions, so be it!
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I respect that decision, especially cause you make it and name good reason for it, but I have been at to many blown up parties and live in a country where those discreet and secret conditions are too often not possible, because everything is so close to each other. :-(
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Aug 21, 2007 17:20
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Yeah i know what you mean Subconsciousmind, its very sad.
iv been to underground events that gets blown and the vibe is lost. Though i been to parties were the police is very understanding and dont bother with harassing people.
i think this is a political question and those who give the police orders how to go about with things like this need to reconcider what they do. There been parties that look like a warzoon, this cant be something that either the police or us is striving for?
its a problem for sure and i dont know how to solve it other than we become political on a higher level.
a party is a party, a person that takes drugs is a person that takes drugs, you cant blame the party for it... though sometimes the party is illegal and this a problem aswell, casue you cant seem to get premission to hold a party when all they think is that its drug party...
i say make a party and invite politicians and have a discussion with them. but maybe its far-fetched..
or point out the countries that behave good and handle this problem in a good way.
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