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So, anyone using the K-System? Opinions?
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Alex Roudos
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Apr 7, 2008 21:13:24
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I started using it a couple of months ago and it's wonderful. It made my mixing and "mastering" life so much easier. Plus the fact that i don't have to worry anymore about the volume differences from track to track.
Highly recommended!!!
  A friend told me once that the biggest mistake we make is that we believe we live, when in reality we are sleeping in the waiting room of life. |
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kajola
Kajola
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Posted : Apr 7, 2008 21:31
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Ghost Host
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Apr 7, 2008 22:22
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Alex Roudos
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Apr 7, 2008 22:49
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Well, it's not hardware and it's not software.
It is a speaker calibration system and its creator is Bob Katz.
According to the Fletcher-Munson curve, the human hearing is most linear at 85dbs. Which means that according to the K-System the 85dbs out of the speakers at the mixing position is the zero point on the audio interface's/dac's pot volume control.
Now, in order to make the calibration, a decibel meter and a pink noise file is needed at first. Then, the pink noise file is inserted on an audio track in the DAW.
Both speakers are turned off initially and their attenuation levels on the back must be set at zero or full position. Then turn on one speaker only and play the pink noise file which must be at 0db on the track's volume fader, the same is for the master output fader. Place the db meter on th mix position and set it to c-weighted, slow reading. Slowly turn on the volume on the audio interface or dac until the db meter reads 83dbs. Repeat the process for the other speaker alone.
After that, when both speakers play the output is 85dbs. This is the actual zero point, which means that the position of the volume pot has to be marked somehow, because this is the starting point. This calibration refers to the K-20 setting, and is used for mixing. The purpose of this system is to provide the best and most accurate perception of sound from the human ear based on the Fletcher-Munson curve. As a result of that, overcompression and/or overequing are avoided, which further results to a less squashed/distorted, more open and dynamic sound/mix which can be auditioned at higher levels for longer time with less fatigue. It's useful to set a level meter that includes the K settings to the master bus and check it every now and then. The meters should hit on an average at 0db with louder parts going to yellow.
For mastering, K-14 or K-12(or K-3 even for hip-hop which is definitely insane)are being used depending on the material to be mastered.
In this case, a K-14 and/or K-12 calibration must be done when making the first calibration and mark the volume pot as well for this settings too. Personally i use K-14, no matter the style i'm mastering.
The K-14 is obviously 6dbs less, which means that during the same calibration process we should get a reading at 77dbs for each speaker and 79dbs for both.
Now when mastering, is recommended the use of a limiter that includes the K-System metering. When K-14 is selected, with the volume pot set to the K-14 mark, this gives 6dbs of headroom to fill with compression/equing/limiting. This ensures that no overcompression/equing/limiting will occur to the final master, therefore it won't be squashed but very open and dynamic sounding. It's also gonna be not that loud when compared to contemporary masters of almost any kind of pop/dance music. But this has to do with the "loudness wars" of our time and it belongs to another thread. The final result in dbs out of the speakers when mastering with the K-14 should be 85dbs if a reading would be taken with the db meter.
Basically, that's it. If i missed anything, please fill in, and i hope you'll find it useful.
Cheers,
Alex.
A friend told me once that the biggest mistake we make is that we believe we live, when in reality we are sleeping in the waiting room of life. |
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psylevation
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 8, 2008 00:07
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I did this a while back with my setup. Now I made some changes and havn't done it again, I really should, when working at this level I didn't have nearly as much difficulty telling whether or not a sound was covering another up. There is also not as much ear fatigue when monitoring at 85db to add to the list of bonuses.
Also if you think about it...you'll get used to producing at this level and everything will be much easier to decipher, because you will be used to how it "should" sound.
Thanx for the reminder Alex 
Cheers,
~Airyck~
~Airyck~
~Unoccupied Mind ~
Psyowa! |
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 8, 2008 00:17
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I haven't got round to investigating and implementing this yet, so this is an interesting read. Thanks Alex.
So basically.. this calibrates the monitors to play at 85db output, when the sequencer plays something that hits 0db headroom (or rather, when a normalised pink noise track plays, I appreciate some sounds may peak more or less around this level assuming they are normalised or recorded adequately).
My problem is, I don't have a mixer to quickly alter the calibrated gains from 'mix' to 'master'.
As you know I have a DAC-1, could I just mark the positions on the knob of where I get different K-setups? Same thing as using a mixer, surely?
So I master quieter than I mix, why does that give better mix judgement?
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vipal
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 8, 2008 00:25
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question to alex: are you releasing (f.e.) fullon?
if so, how were the reactions of the labels on the perceived loudness of your tracks?
in other words is it a problem when you release for a VAcompilation and the other guys on the cd are still in the loudness war?
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 8, 2008 00:40
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Well I would have thought if it's going on a compilation album, a pro mastering engineer would do the whole album from the mixes. So they'd all be about the same volume. |
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Alex Roudos
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Apr 8, 2008 01:40
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Thanx guys!
Vipal full on/psychedelic is not my cup of tea, so i can't say anything on that, but the hip hop album i'm producing is gonna be mastered at around -14 dbFS RMS, which is at 6 to 8dbs(if not more) less than today's standards. The label that is releasing it are more than happy with that fact as they now that louder is louder, not better. In the case of a compilation release usually they remaster the tracks just for level matching and balancing. So, even if you track is lower, it'll get higher and probably loose some of its dynamics depending on what the guy who's doing the remastering is gonna do.
So, just imagine how important would be if everyone was mixing according to the K-System?
It would certainly preserve the quality of the tracks of those mixing lower and would enhance the quality of every style of music dramatically.
To conclude, if the other tracks of a compilation are victims of the loudness wars your track will be to but with less casualties.
Tomos, the pink noise is -20dbFS RMS and after you calibrate your system, whatever you mix, as long as the K-20 meter hits always an average of 0db you are mixing at -20dbFS no matter where your individual sounds peak. It's obvious that all track volumes are well below minus.
As for the DAC-1, from what i measured, every step on its volume pot is around 1.5dbs, but that doesn't really mean anything. In my set up-mixing position i get the 85dbs output in the 15th step of the DAC-1's volume pot. The 11th step is the 79dbs mark. I didn't want do anything on the face of my sexy silver DAC  so i just count the steps every time i'm about to do the "master" mixdown.
And you don't master quieter than you mix. You start quieter than you mix in order to return to the original 85bds by adding the missing 6dbs with compression/eq/enhancing/limiting. And 6 dbs of extra dynamics in this stage will inject to the track exactly the boost that is needed with out removing anything from it. And you will know that because you are now listening to the final material at optimum sound level for our hearing.
And after you do that, just turn your DAC-1 4-5 steps up and let your jaw drop to the floor and roll!!!
A friend told me once that the biggest mistake we make is that we believe we live, when in reality we are sleeping in the waiting room of life. |
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vipal
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 8, 2008 03:00
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thanks for the explanation. interesting what you say about mixing and mastering, for me some pieces come together. sure will try out, finally calibrate my presonus central station. when i read the manual i think its calibration of the metering is based on this kway of working.
offcourse the next issue is then the interaction with the mastering guy. if then after your kmixing the masterguy squashes it like a popband its not what you want, how do you this? presumed you have someone else mastering your tracks. do they all know this system and work with it, seems quite obvious system, experiences? |
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klippel
Stereofeld
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Posted : Apr 8, 2008 11:10
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he alex,
very nice thread indeed. always wondered why these "plastic sounding" tracks sound shallow after a while..
so i went to read that site you linked and found out that rme has built in the k-system into their digicheck software.
so i set my digicheck rms meter (we are talking about rms values, right?) to the k-14 system..
now i push the master in cubase to a level where my rms meter in digicheck peaks at = dB rms..
is that correct? that leaves me with a specific headroom now, a bigger dynamic range.. since i do that my mixes sound better no matter if its right or not ;-)
and of course there is the monitor calibration thingy i haven´t done yet cause i don´t have a level meter yet..
but that is only for your comofort of hearing an "calibrating" your ears to a certain dB level, making each track you write intercomparable in total level values, is it?
cheers tim |
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Alex Roudos
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Apr 8, 2008 11:22
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klippel, the monitor calibration thingy is the most important to be done. Everything starts with it. No matter what kind of metering you use, still you don't know when the volume output of your speakers is 85 dbs in your room in your specific listening position.
So, first get a db meter, calibrate the speakers and only after that the k-meters will have a meaning.
Also, if you mix with K-14, what about mastering? I think that a K-14 mix would be quite loud and in mastering afterwards there would be almost not as much space left for real enhancement of the sound. Mixing with K-14 seems to me more like mastering while mixing. The default K meter for mixing from what i read as well is the K-20.
greetz,
A friend told me once that the biggest mistake we make is that we believe we live, when in reality we are sleeping in the waiting room of life. |
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klippel
Stereofeld
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Posted : Apr 8, 2008 11:36
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hm..
i mean, of course, for your mixing capabilities the monitor calibrations is the most important.
but back to the metering according to the k-system thing. i mean these values are inside the machine. no matter at what my monitors play first hand, right?
all we want to do is prevent us from pushing levels to far up to decrease the dynamic range, right?
so you suggest for mixing purposes the k-20 system? so i push my master in my daw to reach 0dB rms on my K-system meter. Correct?
and yes alex, i´m going to get a dB meter for shure and calibrate my monitors because i gues thats the most important part for your ear education and you mixing performance...
just curious about the "technical part"..
cheers! |
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Alex Roudos
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Apr 8, 2008 11:58
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The point is that without the actual calibration the meters don't say anything at all. In fact you can avoid even using them after a time when your ears are trained enough. The meters are only for refference.
The calibration is so important because what you achieve with it is to find your actual 85dbs output, where your hearing is most linear. And this is what will prevent you from overdoing things that will decrease the dynamic range.
My suggestion is don't bother with the k meters now. Calibrate first and then proceed with the k meters.
K-20 is the one for mixing, yes. And in any case, using the k-meters or not the master fader in any daw should always be at 0db. After calibrating, you just apply in the master your rme's k-meter for reference.
A friend told me once that the biggest mistake we make is that we believe we live, when in reality we are sleeping in the waiting room of life. |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 8, 2008 12:58
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guys remember each track have different loudness potential ,a track at k 14 can sound good a lot more louder if the mix is aimed for that .i think the best is to adjust between something loud but not as loud as destroying the sound . |
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