jekvan
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Posted : Oct 20, 2011 19:02
Great,now it makes sense...Does that mean that even in sine wave, different digital synths will have slightly different sound to it?
From all the things I lost,that sandwitch cost me most :)
Maine Coon
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Posted : Oct 20, 2011 21:28
There are two completely unrelated answers to tht OP question. One was already provided by Colin: the wave in Analog is (probably) not pure. Wouldn't be too surprising, considering all the talk about "analogue warmth" around here, would it? After all, isn't "warmth" just an euphemism for mild distortion?
The other answer has not been mentioned but is important to consider: it is an artifact of the spectrum analizer itself. It has to do with looking at theoretically infinite wave through a finite time window (2048 samples is a popular setting but it can be other powers of 2 as well). The Monolake guy (one of Ableton's creators) mentioned it in his talk in NZ. You can find a link either at his or Tom Cosm's site, I don't remember exactly. He also mentions something that has not been mentioned here: how significant are those "harmonics" (even if they were real, which they may not be)? -70 dB? Is that something to write home about?
This artefact of the spectrun algorithm is inevitable. It is actually exactly same phenomenon as very short notes becoming indistinct clicks or bass notes not having enough time to develop at blazing BPMs. Strangely enough, the famous Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is just a special case of this - inescapable - effect.
So, even if your sine wave is ideal, you'll still see some stray harmonics in the spectrum. No need to panic, IMHO.
Yidam
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Posted : Oct 20, 2011 21:59
Does it look the same for test tones too ? I think the analog sine not being perfect has something to do with the way the circuit is designed for sine. It's not as simple as creating a linear wave like saw and triangle or a comparator wave like the square. The overtones probably come from the circuit compensation (or circuit algorithm in the case of softsynths) required to make the curve a smooth sine.*
Pure sines are never really musical anyway. There's not much you can do with them afterwards either. Would think it would be used more for stuff like checking audio equipment and sound therapy.
* excuse me if I'm talking nonsense, been a long time since my last electronics lesson.
TimeTraveller
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Posted : Oct 20, 2011 22:06
PoM
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Posted : Oct 20, 2011 22:15
i think a sine is hard to get in analog ,it s lacking in many synths (you could get a purer one with the filter maybe)
some tone generator have the same thing hapening than operator it seems, but i dont remember why, maybe it s artifacts i dont know.
Colin OOOD
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Posted : Oct 20, 2011 22:21
Quote:
On 2011-10-20 21:28, Maine Coon wrote:
The other answer has not been mentioned but is important to consider: it is an artifact of the spectrum analizer itself. It has to do with looking at theoretically infinite wave through a finite time window (2048 samples is a popular setting but it can be other powers of 2 as well). The Monolake guy (one of Ableton's creators) mentioned it in his talk in NZ. You can find a link either at his or Tom Cosm's site, I don't remember exactly. He also mentions something that has not been mentioned here: how significant are those "harmonics" (even if they were real, which they may not be)? -70 dB? Is that something to write home about?
This artefact of the spectrun algorithm is inevitable. It is actually exactly same phenomenon as very short notes becoming indistinct clicks or bass notes not having enough time to develop at blazing BPMs. Strangely enough, the famous Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is just a special case of this - inescapable - effect.
So, even if your sine wave is ideal, you'll still see some stray harmonics in the spectrum. No need to panic, IMHO.
Alien Bug
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Posted : Oct 21, 2011 11:46
Its impossible for make a "perfect" sine in digital domain. There will be always a 'steps", more or less but always (maybe by oversampling, like antialiasing in graphic)
TimeTraveller
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Posted : Oct 21, 2011 12:50
yes it won't be as perfect I agree because the digital domain is time discrete and can't be perfect .
But this are by no way any overtones.. (the steps in a pattern)
This are unnoticable to our conscious because of antialiasing etc ^.
If ableton does have really such a sinewave (and than it is for sure notticable - this one pic looks atleast like this are overtones - and this would make sense for a logical warmth I think.No need for a zoom there.
Shiranui
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Posted : Oct 21, 2011 13:05
It might also be because the spectrum plugin is not designed correctly. Try bouncing the sinewave and viewing in another app.
Shiranui
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Posted : Oct 21, 2011 13:06
Quote:
On 2011-10-21 11:46, Alien Bug wrote:
Its impossible for make a "perfect" sine in digital domain. There will be always a 'steps", more or less but always (maybe by oversampling, like antialiasing in graphic)
It's impossible to make a perfect sine in analog domain either, because there is always noise, oscillator drift, distortion from imperfect circuits, etc.
The difference introduced by digital's "steps" is usually not as big as the noise present in analog.
Colin OOOD
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Posted : Oct 21, 2011 15:37
Quote:
On 2011-10-21 09:31, Maine Coon wrote:
^
looks good
Can you feed the same wave into Ableton's spectrum analyser to compare?
knocz
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Posted : Oct 21, 2011 15:44
Quote:
On 2011-10-21 13:05, Shiranui wrote:
It might also be because the spectrum plugin is not designed correctly. Try bouncing the sinewave and viewing in another app.
(maybe by oversampling, like antialiasing in graphic)
