| Author
|
seperation between producers and engineers
|
cytopia
Cytopia.org
Started Topics :
61
Posts :
329
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 15:13
|
|
Andi should at the other 30% of the music sent in is great. Usually people who have been making music for a long time; and have learned the details of how to get the mix to sound right. |
|
|
daniel duarte
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
219
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 15:30
|
I like how you say this Cytopia:
"...70% of the tracks are not produced well enough, wich will make the mastering engineers work almost impossible" ...
You said something like this.. I just write what i remember to avoid going back and quote.
So, I think we must distinguish sound quality and production quality. Meaning, the creativity could be all there... It could be a great release with the most creative sequences you ever seen... You actually feel that you want to release it but then, comes the mixing part... And its not that good :
Basically, 90% of the labels, instead of telling that artist to improve his mix, they just say "this isnt good enough". Thats a knock out for many of them.... There they were, sucking there brains out for talent, and then discover it wasnt worth it at all...
And this takes us to what Surrender was talking about in the last posts... Should the artist just give a big pile of sounds, badly mixed but with lots of creativity? Of course not...
You see.. A rock band also needs to get in touch with labels and stuff... And they will (definitly) record ther material all over again in a greater studio, if they actually sign for that label.... But, to get the label to listen to them before that, they need something with a good enough mix...
What am I trying to say here? Even rock bands care about sound quality, and they know they will be recorded again...
Its all about impression.. taste.. and having a good CD to show to a label manager without puting blood in his ears ..
The point that we are missing in electronic scene is the actual suport of the artist. Take a look at other scenes (such the rock i just said).. They invest in their artists! They believe in their skills, invest time and money into making them ready and then try to sell it...
How can you people talk bad about a producer in his home studio, with little gear ?? We live in a scene where we must reach the Top by our own (as someone said.. dj/producer/manager and etc)... He does it all by himself.. He works at other jobs to support his cause, he does all that... And in the end, the only thing he'll get is some releases and gigs... and then the pain starts again, to get more gigs and more releases.
The electronic (real) artist is working his ass out to have a chance in this competitive world of ours.
Should the electronic artist release the best possible mix he can? Of course he should... But we shouldnt expect a perfect mastering job from him.. I mean, hes doign already like 5 diferent jobs in the scene... And the money he will earn wont be that much... Why not just let the label guys do it, then?
Besides, as I said before, the artist could only master an entire album (following his own standard) and never master just one track.. without knowing the final result.
Final note to cytopia: With just some simple mixing rules, provided by your engineers, the producers could develop a much better result. Im thinking mostly about dB levels thru the mix.. And it does make a HUGE diference, when aplied well... |
|
|
|
Yuli
Retired
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
1660
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 17:57
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-08-11 15:30, daniel duarte wrote:
Basically, 90% of the labels, instead of telling that artist to improve his mix, they just say "this isnt good enough". Thats a knock out for many of them.... There they were, sucking there brains out for talent, and then discover it wasnt worth it at all...
|
|
From my personal experience it is very rare that artist will actually accept your critique, and there will be the endless debate about wether the mastering will fix the mix etcetera... From personal experience that is. Ofcourse there are cases of those open minded ones that do listen, but as artists we all a little stuck in our own bubble and hard to let go...
Quote:
|
The point that we are missing in electronic scene is the actual suport of the artist. Take a look at other scenes (such the rock i just said).. They invest in their artists! They believe in their skills, invest time and money into making them ready and then try to sell it...
|
|
I think u r missing the point here. To start with, Rock bands that are invested in, are usually with huge potential to sell hundreds of thousands and more CDs, whilst in the Trance world we speak about average of 2500 copies per CD ( and I was 1000 copies too nice ). It is very hard to invest studio time in a band that will sell this amount of CD's.
Secondly, Rock Band that gets to the level that I just mentioned doesnt come out of the blue, a lot of effort time and money are invested by them before they come to that point, in STUDYING PLAYING INSTRUMENT which can take years to master, COMPOSING and the list is long. In our days of Trance scene everyone with a strong enough PC and a pair of speakers is a potential artist.
which leads me to the following:
Quote:
|
How can you people talk bad about a producer in his home studio, with little gear ?? We live in a scene where we must reach the Top by our own (as someone said.. dj/producer/manager and etc)... He does it all by himself.. He works at other jobs to support his cause, he does all that... And in the end, the only thing he'll get is some releases and gigs... and then the pain starts again, to get more gigs and more releases.
The electronic (real) artist is working his ass out to have a chance in this competitive world of ours.
|
|
Very easy. Since everyone with a strong enough PC and pair of speakers is an artist, I can expect some decency from this artist to take a few years studying the art of mixing and the art of composing, as the members of the Rock Bands u mentioned studied playing drums, guitars etc.,
Being an artist it is not only a nickname to get more girls or play gigs abroad, there is much more to it. You must put your soul on the stake and introduce your feelings into the system - not only u have to do that which is hard enough by all means - U HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO PRESENT IT THE RIGHT WAY SO PPL WILL GET YOUR POINT.
There is a competitive world around us for sure, but its also much easier to get a studio. Only 10 years ago u had to have 10000Euro to start with.
Quote:
|
Should the electronic artist release the best possible mix he can? Of course he should... But we shouldnt expect a perfect mastering job from him.. I mean, hes doign already like 5 diferent jobs in the scene... And the money he will earn wont be that much... Why not just let the label guys do it, then?
|
|
Because if this guy is a real artist he will never give the label his ART in a shitty mix to deal with.
About the subject - I do believe that as voice recording is an art in front itself ( straight translation from hebrew sorry ) so is the mastering an art in front itself. Ppl learn four years in some establishments to become master engineers, it seems that we are one of the only scenes that havent got that idea yet. For three of my albums I was working with German guy named Veit Weiman - he made and produced most of the 'Oliver Shanti' CD's, and from him I learned that mastering is an art and knowledge of it is not so simple as it may seem to others. And headroom and compression, might sound very simple and easy but believe me it takes years to master and understand, the sooner we understand that the better.
 A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
|
|
|
orange
Fat Data
Started Topics :
154
Posts :
3918
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 18:15
|
|
Morax
Triac
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
348
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 21:03
|
i absolutly agree with yul!
well said ! |
|
|
|
daniel duarte
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
219
Posted : Aug 12, 2005 06:59
|
So Yuli, If you read what I said before the long post, its explicit that I prefer to leave mastering to engineers in a better studio, listening to the material for the very first times, with a much more acurate knowledge than mine.. Instead of doing by myself..
So you see, I agree with you... And I do value education on all these points. Much of what I learn in audio is from friends, some of them are in the audio university (and no, i dont mean the 2 year classes in)... I do intend to study there aswell, and form myself in Production & Music Technology's... If I have the possibility to study for some years.
Now, about what you mention...
First, when you mention the number of sold copys in trance... I wasnt talking just about trance, but electronic music in general... In it you can include all sorts of genres that as you know, sell alot more than psytrance, such as: House (comercial or not) and, lets not go further, Euro Trance...
Next point:
You try to compare the years a guitar or drum player spend to learn their technic, with the way a producer starts to make sounds...
First, I think we can cross a very thin line, between producer and musician/instrument player... Why? I think its obvious... A producer, thru out the years (with or without school) will learn how to compose and produce groups of instruments....
Not only that, he will learn how to create harmonys and, without even knowing how, create beautifull melodys and sequences that stay in your head (and sell)... and he will do it over and over again...
The creativity required for that is something that has to come from the inside, not from schools, and thats why a good producer is required for all sorts of shits... Including making albums for the musicians you talk about.. the ones who took years in learning how to play it.
Wich takes us to where my logic started: You tried comparing the learning of how to play an instrument, with the "how to produce in software"...
Well.. I think it takes the exact same time.. Say a professional guitar player.. To reach the level he has today it took him 10 years... But after 2 of practice he was already playing at small gigs with his garage band...
You get my point? A producer after 2 years or so will also start to make some "small gig worth" sounds... It doesnt matter if its a computer.. Its still a learning process, not only in the technic but in the knowing of how to pass ideas from the mind to the computer (or the instrument.. if you want to include the player in the example).
Its always a evolution.. After many years people reach the top level.. and they still can improve it in little inches...
And if you wanna go deep in it, think about the advantages of producing VS playing in this case... I mean, after 10 years, a guitar player will play awsomely well the guitar... A producer will be producing that guitar guy band, plus 10 other bands, plus his solo project, plus a movie sound track, plus whatever u can think of....
Well.. its a long post already.. I pass you the ball i guess |
|
|
|
daniel duarte
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
219
Posted : Aug 12, 2005 07:09
|
Oh and I forgot... Your starting point was about the labels giving advice to the artist...
Of course if you try to correct the creativity and, lets say, the sequence of his music, you will probably offend him and make him think his style is not really worth it in your label...
But, what I was talking about was giving mixing tips.. I mean, you can easily ear a medium mixed track and detect most of the things that could have been mixed better.... Its not harmfull to an artist to give him some good advice...
and I dont mean just saying "you need to improve your mix...".. thats no advice for the guy who made it... it wont help him.. just depress him
What I mean by advice would be something like "Listen.. if after you do all your stuff, you put the faders down and remix all in this bla bla bla range of values, you will have a much more acurate mix, plus you will leave space for how mastering engineer to work on."
|
|
|
|
ucc
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
16
Posts :
316
Posted : Aug 12, 2005 08:35
|
imagine you send a demo cd to 20 labels, now following your *cof*nutter*cof* idea, you'll by the end of the day receive 20 tremendously elaborated replies, and a final very formal apolagise because they... it's not that they don't like... you understand?!
how many demos must a label receive per day?
Quote:
| and I dont mean just saying "you need to improve your mix...".. thats no advice for the guy who made it... it wont help him.. just depress him |
|
sorry... lol
|
|
|
|
Yuli
Retired
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
1660
Posted : Aug 12, 2005 12:36
|
@ daniel duarte:
About your later post with the mixing tips, I have to say to u that more than once that I said to some artist his mix is muddy in the low end I was answered that mastering should fix this and he is satisfied with the outcome.
About your longer post yeah man, we agree that mastering should be done by mastering technitians, but we dont really agree on the quality of the work that should be handled by the artist to the label, since, as u say, label should help promising artist to achieve better results by advicing him and giving him proper equipment. Well as an artist I can only hope it will happen since it is such a Utopic idea, but it seems to me there is not much chance for it in the Trance world at least. I still stand tho behind my point, that REAL artist wont hand bad sound production to the label, unless there is some other great innovation in his sound. You see - for me that is, the only thing that can cover up for a shitty production is INNOVATION. There is almost no such thing in Trance scene at the mo since 90% of new producers work on formulae creations in which the break should be in a specific place, followed by a melody etc..
But since the main topic is mastering I am off topic, and in the mastering thingie we agree my man - mastering should be done by mastering technitian
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
|
|
|
mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : Aug 12, 2005 19:58
|
Definitely mastering should be handled by an engineer but I've also considered it a little game to me to make sure the engineer doesn't have very much that he or she needs to do to master the track. (That way when I master my own version to play out before it gets released, it'll still sound decent)
Not too many artists communicate about sound quality. There aren't too many threads about mixing tips seeing that mixing is subjective to the feel that the track is supposed to give. It's one thing if there's so much mud in the low end that you feel like your in a rally race, but I think many producers are seeking a sense of sonic clarity combined with creative flair.. Mastering engineers should be asked to "polish turds", but to just give the track that extra little nudge that it needs to be as close to perfect as it gets.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
|
|
|
daniel duarte
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
219
Posted : Aug 12, 2005 20:07
|
Yuli.. Well some artists are more ceptic when someone trys to correct them. Others, I figure are just lazy and dont want to go and bounce the track again... I agree that, after a while, even I would quit trying to explain him how it should sound...
As we all know, theres a huge ammount of artists and people trying to establish themselfs as artists. Among those, lets say, 25% really have a soul and passion for it, and if they dont fry their brains meanwhile, they might have a chance of becoming very good at it.
Most of the remaining 75% are .. you know.. they do express themselfs thru music but you dont really see anything special in it.
And, lets admit it, when listening to whatever tune you are listening, you can say if its done by someone with the necessary passion and creativity, or just by some of the other 75%.
What im trying to say here (and this is also for you Uccpd), is that we cannot put them all in the same bag.
I understand that, with the huge amount of tracks being made and the copy/paste material that spreads thru the scene, its hard to filter the good stuff thru all that.. The "computer kid producers" as some of you said, are indeed overflowing the scene... But, what is a fashion to a great part, can be a moto for a living of another... meaning: among all those kids who just do it cause being a dj is fashionable and producers can make live acts.. among all those, there are some who just want to make their sounds and express themselfs...
Yes, its true.. in the 80's and early 90's you needed money to be a producer... So what? The kid next door just used a guitar and made his own music, cause he feels like doing so... Nowadays its the same.. Except you can actually make it all by yourself. Theres no greater pleasure than siting in your leaving room, puting on a cd, and listening to the music you made sounding like it was bought at a store. |
|
|
|
Willy Wonka
Inactive User
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
574
Posted : Aug 12, 2005 21:51
|
Mubali it is subjective as you said, that why noone talk about it. Some of us can do the stupidest things by theory but to achieve great mixing. So once they will start to explain, everyone will laugh on them. Also some of artists feel not good enough/unsecure/afraid to speak about sound design because artist who talks shit will be main object of fun making for many month. (The reason Yuli hides his artistic name, lol. Joke!). I've responded to number of posts dealing with sound quality but at the end i did not express myself right (i can't to do it virtualy/by writing), when others just express themselfs with main idea "it is subjective, leave it alone".
Daniel, yes i agree that some artists who produce music (with passion/emotional/creative/unique way) we shouldn't care about sound quality at all, since they are new wave! Although there are no 25% but much less, when probably 3/4 of them known worldwide because somewhat i see crowd can judge certain music genre right after some time they listen to that genre.
Also it is great that now everyone can produce music, so we have more variety but it is much harder to "fish out" the real good music! So it is double sided. Living in 80' and buying all hardware doesn't garantee you that you would be next Depeche Mode or Uberzone. You just spend more money on music which can have two sides too. If you think hard enough! |
|
|
|
cytopia
Cytopia.org
Started Topics :
61
Posts :
329
Posted : Aug 13, 2005 13:16
|
|
If someone sends in a good composition with bad sound quality we tell them that, and since i make music myself i try to explain how they can improve the mix etc. Some of them are able to improve and others you dont hear from again... its not that easy since i can only hear the mixdown, and cant see their actual sequencing studio situation. |
|
|
|
Fingax
Cosmic Station
Started Topics :
82
Posts :
1235
Posted : Aug 15, 2005 06:05
|
answering to the first post by surrender:
In the other scenes wich are not electronic, the major part of musicians dont know nothing at all about engeneering, thats way they need to go to a recording studio with an engeneer there making the job for them, their function is to play.
In the electronic scene and i'll speack in trance scene, major part of artist dont have engeneering concepts, although i belive in all electronic scene most artist have better engeneering backup and the nonelectronic artist have a better musical backup.
about an artist trying to release a trance track in a lable is up to him to get as best quality he can. mastering meens nothing to sound quality. nothing at all. if the mix sounds bad the master will sound even worst in most cases cause it turns the errors more visible.
i also saw someone saing that a lable shoudn't say "try to get better mix" cause is depressing to artist? so my opinion is that the artist don't actually knows what is his function in all of these.
Same shit with metal bands. if ur demo sounds bad the lable will tell you that u need a better recording cause they cannot see what you r trying to show.
Anyway if u work hard ( hard is not 1 month or 1 year is much more) u will get the point that u realise that u can make good proper quality music wich haves good mix and litlle job for engeneering. the mix is everything. and it takes years to develop your ears and u need equipment that ensures u minimali proffesional job.
the lable just need to send to master cause the music came from difrent studios and they all sound difrent in terms of freq. range so the mastering is just to feet the tracks in the same sound. sometimes they fuck up the tracks with the mastering, sometimes they do their job good.
If the question was "were are the best sound engeneering" i would say that they are not in the trance scene because in the nonelectronic scene the engeneerings are only that i meen they dont create the music, so they dont need to lose time dedication, concentration, learnings, etc, about creating electronic music.Also the non electronic scene haves more time in history so they had time enough to develop and grw in the buisness wich meen bigger and better studios than a producer/engeneer in electronic music. Dont forget that there are always the exeptions wich makes everything more interesting 
|
|
|
|
daniel duarte
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
219
Posted : Aug 15, 2005 17:46
|
Its typical to just grab a few words and sentences from the other posts and then just go ahead and shoot.
"i also saw someone saing that a lable shoudn't say "try to get better mix" cause is depressing to artist? so my opinion is that the artist don't actually knows what is his function in all of these. "
- what I said was (and in specific cases, not general.. read the post): Labels should try to be more specific when trying to help someone. Instead of just saying "This mix is not good. Sorry", a little clear and specific advice would be much better... I even gave an example in my post.
Of course mix is important. Everybody who enjoys music at a certain level, wants to see his tweeter launch pure crystal clean sounds.. (example).  |
|
|
|
|
