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seperation between producers and engineers
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Surrender
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Aug 10, 2005 18:44
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something ive been thinking about lately and maybe some of you have some insight on this...
is the seperation between artist/producer and the engineers who master the tracks so clear in other genre's as it is in ours? i mean, most of the artists in our scene do not know how to properly master a track and leave it to the labels to find a proffessional eng. (usually/hopefully). they are infact so sure their work is not as good as the mastered cd that they often will play the cd version once they get it.
is this a common thing in the music business? or are we a scene of mostly amateurs?
i thought about this as a possible answer because i dont know many other genres where people set up home studios that consist of just a computer, monitor and some vst's- but then again i might be really wrong and that's how it is throughout. also its fair to mention that some artists make better post production and mastering then the actual labels they send their music to. some are also audio eng. themselves.... this to me is the ideal situation. maybe it also has to do with the underground nature of the movement ('til recently?) where you cannot expect this from a young scene..
would love for some of you to share your thoughts.
  "On the other hand, you have different fingers."
http://myspace.com/gadimon |
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Willy Wonka
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Posted : Aug 10, 2005 19:38
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http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/68575/forum/1/start/60
My answer to your question is there!
Although,
Ocelot has said i'm moron and psytrance scene is very professional, even better than house scene! SO basically from his words you can understand most of human are brainwashed when it comes to music quality! When Ocelot is real master of art!
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daniel duarte
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Aug 10, 2005 20:12
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Well Surrender.. I think you are puting everything in the same box.
First, if you're talking about VA, then obviously the artist wont even try to master his track, because he knows the all cd mastering must have a standard, wich we doesnt know what will be yet..
Then, if you are (as would be logical) talking about artist full albums, then we go the my second point: Some of artists RATHER have another human ear and a more acurate pair of monitors, listening and fine tuning his material...
Its normal that for a producer that, after hours spent making and listening to his tracks, he will be more tired of it and probably not notice some aspects...
A fresh pair of ears and monitors, in a properly built studio with acoustic planing, will definitly make the diference... Not only because of the quality of the space itself, but also because the human who will master the album is listening to it for the first times.. So he has a much more consistent opinion than the creator...
This doesnt happen just in trance at all... It happens everywhere in every scene..
Were my words worth your time, Surrender? |
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Surrender
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Aug 10, 2005 20:44
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well daniel, firstly your words are "worth" my time because you took the time to write them, so thanks.
about what you said, i agree with the points about fresh ears and a proper studio to have another look at it. but im asking are they even capable in the first place?
i know britney spears does not know anything about audio engineering and her sound is top notch, i suppose thats true of real musicians like metallica for example who take dictation for their individual roles and parts from an audio eng. who is later enhancing their sounds... good points - i didnt look at it that way.
what about other genres in the electronic world such as house or techno?
"On the other hand, you have different fingers."
http://myspace.com/gadimon |
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Surrender
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Aug 10, 2005 23:39
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but actualy daniel, following that logic, producers should just make a big unmixed track and let the the engineers do ALL of the eq's per channel... but this is not the case, you often send the project as a wav already... so its mixed, but not mastered.
"On the other hand, you have different fingers."
http://myspace.com/gadimon |
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Willy Wonka
Inactive User
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Posted : Aug 10, 2005 23:41
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Britney Spears has different role in whole case. In my opinion musician shouldn't know much about mastering because this mastering can probably take his time of music creation. Although these days mastering and quality of production getting higher when music skills getting lower in whole music world. This probably mean simple thing, musicians have started to sound design as well as non quality musicians and labels got into business.
Maybe i will sound fundametalist but i think musicians should do music and sound engineers should do sound, when each side should know 20% of other side. Just my opinion.
For progressive house scene i clearly know, most of prog.house artists using same equipment as we do. Mastering studio dependant on label's size, Virgin isn't MutekKi same as MutekKi isn't VP. All have their size and it's depends on mastering quality most of the times. Same thing in psytrance i think, BNE sounds better than Trancelucent same as sound better than Tribal.
Artists who know music should be dominating part of sound engeering since artist should say how he wants this album to be, when most of psy trance artists give music to sound engineers like to saviours who will make them sound better, when probably engeneers are not that great. |
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mubali
Mubali
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Posted : Aug 11, 2005 03:21
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Well Gadi, following your last statement about presenting a big file with all the individual channels, It's not just about eqing when you do your final mixdown. You should know as well as anyone who produces that you tend to eq your sounds while you are arranging them, otherwise you probably wouldn't ever finish a track. The one thing that doesn't really happen once you've submitted something to be mastered is getting feedback from the mastering engineer on how to make your overall sound better. There has only been a few times where I got contacted by the mastering engineer for one of my songs, and one time that was just to tell me that he really enjoyed it.
I honestly doubt that a psytrance mastering engineer really wants to do a mixdown of your track for you... Not to mention what about automation... There are some people that automate the eq's (fading in synth sounds using low or hi cuts etc.) If you left all eqing to the mastering engineer then it would be possible that such things wouldn't occur when the producer wanted to do so.
In many genres of music, the recording takes place in the studio with the engineer on hand for the entire song creation process. That would be incredibly difficult and expensive to do in our genre given the fact we all live in different places. Don't get me wrong, I would love to just show up at 4 CN studios and have Tim record all my sounds into his equipment and arrange it with him, but I don't see myself being able to fly to Germany everytime I want to do a song...
Believe it or not, some of the reasons why there is such sonic diversity in our scene is because we do it ourselves, of course there are going to be people that aren't as knowledgeable about their production quality and how to make it better, but that's what experience is for right? I listed to the first GMS album a week or so ago and compared it to one of their more recent releases and was amazed on how unimpressive their production quality WAS.
It's like learning an instrument, in the beginning, you suck... but you practice and you learn from others and your skill will improve... This forum has really helped me in my production quality, and the people here that are willing to share their knowledge has really made a world of difference to me.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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Willy Wonka
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Posted : Aug 11, 2005 04:07
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I agree with anything been said. |
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
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Posted : Aug 11, 2005 07:59
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I entered psy through the "mainstream" recording world first, so personally one thing that has always annoyed me about the electronic music world is the use of word "producer" to equal "artist". While in, for example, psy-trance the same person plays both roles usually, they are in fact very different, with the artist being in the guy who comes up with the music and the producer being the person in charge of the recording session (and in the majority of the music world, usually "not" someone in the band).
Also as has probably been mentioned, traditionally the "engineer" is the guy who more or less handles all the machines and technical details of recording for the producer in a recording session (which is an entirely different role than that of the mastering engineer). Again, this is usually "not" someone in the band. Electronic music is kind of a unique case in that often the artist ends up performing all the other roles as well, but in the end result what we care about is the music they created, so I prefer the word "artist" rather than "producer" or "engineer", even if they played those other roles too.
New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
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shachar
Basic
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Posted : Aug 11, 2005 10:57
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in my opinion, we live in a world that labels dont sign an artist on artistic level only but on engineering skills as well. the sound is crutial part of a track these days and every artist should become a producer to release his stuff. also, every artist should become a DJ to benefit from the music he write.
its the new type of a producer/artist/DJ/promoter/booking agent that you need to become to make it in this scene.
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Morax
Triac
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Posted : Aug 11, 2005 13:19
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Quote:
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On 2005-08-10 19:38, Willy Wonka wrote:
Ocelot has said i'm moron and psytrance scene is very professional, even better than house scene! SO basically from his words you can understand most of human are brainwashed when it comes to music quality! When Ocelot is real master of art!
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the psytrance scene is more professional from the house scene.. it was a good one hehe
however, imo, 90% of the "artists" (in the psytrance scene) dont know almost anything about engeneering and the funny part,.. that they dont have much connection with art, but they do have some others very big skills.. to move between presets, to download samples, to rip sounds from other releases.
well, i think that in electronic music such as house, trance, techno, break-beat..etc.. the "info" of the music is much more into the quality and the mix, than in classical music or acoustic geners.
and... the artists must know at least how to get a descent sound mix quality.
the mastering engeneer should tweak the music just a little bit and give it the final touch. |
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tuntran
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Posted : Aug 11, 2005 14:36
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I 100% agree with Jikkenteki on the words used to describe the artists/producers
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| to move between presets, to download samples, to rip sounds from other releases. |
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you're taking everybody down here
psytrance artists are not all working this way, many create their tracks from scratch and make efforts in designing their sounds and drums.
It is true that some other lazy people work the way you described, rip'n'go, but don't put everybody in the same box.
Anyway, the case of psy trance is a bit special since there isn't a band where every member is triggering a sound or playing a synth and on the other side of the studio, an engineer recording what the band is playing and insuring the quality of the mix.
So there is a minimum of knowledge and know-how required from the artist to deliver a decent mix to the label.
Thats why an artist is not a producer or engineer in all cases.
Mastering, as Daniel said, requires fresh ears, decent acoustics and monitors and is not intended to correct mixing mistakes done by the artists, but is destined to enhance and help a well-mixed-track to sound good everywhere (in simple words).
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Morax
Triac
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Posted : Aug 11, 2005 14:58
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tuntran i agree, i've said 90% ..
(meaning to the commercial side) |
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Willy Wonka
Inactive User
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Posted : Aug 11, 2005 15:07
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Nice words Morax, good another Israeli agree with me, surely because you listen top techno artists and know what are real skills in world of music. Also my words about all prystrance artists are amateurs followed part saying "Mainstream artists". By mainstream i don't mean "fullon", but i mean avarage psytrance artist. |
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
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Posted : Aug 11, 2005 15:09
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WE just started this record label, and we are getting music sent to us and uploaded. i'd say 70% of what gets sent in isnt produced well enough; and by that i mean a mastering engineer would have a hard time getting it to sound right.
The artist's equipment and how well he/she knows how to use it, and EQ everything right so frequencies dont interfere and the relative levels are right is really important, otherwise it limits how much a mastering engineer can do with it. And it a pity some compositions are really nice, but with bad production there is little that can be done to make it sound as it should on a big sound system.
We recently had a track mastered by Colin OOOD and it sounded great. I think its good to have someone with fresh ears master it, someone with experience and a room that has good sound. We also had a track mastered by Tim Shuldt at 4CN studio and that also sounded great.
So it is neither just the production or just the mastering i think, both have to be done well for a track to really sound refined and professional. |
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