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Sending to reverbs - what to do?
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 27, 2010 17:58:56
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I hate asking questions like this, but I know how much you all love to help, so here goes  .
I'm finally putting reverbs on send channels. My question is this; what are the advantages/disadvantages to sending groups of channels (pads, fx, leads, etc) as a whole to the reverb send channel compared to sending each sound channel separately (and by varying amounts)?
I can see the advantage to sending each channel by itself (allows me to adjust the amount of reverb to fit each sound), but was cautious if this will produce a bad sounding mix. I've been doing a bit of both (sending groups and sending individual channels) and haven't heard any negative/positives so some theoretical feedback would be helpful as well since it's something I simply do not know. Does the fact that I'm only sending out to 2 different reverbs make the amount I send not negatively affect the mix? By this I mean, will Lead1 and Lead2 fit together properly if they are sent in different amounts to the same reverb?
Any additional advice to working with reverbs on send channels would be appreaciated . Thanks!
  http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
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Posted : Jan 27, 2010 18:25
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Inserting a reverb on an audio/instrument track, having the dry parameter at 0dB and then adding some reverb (wet parameter) at say -24dB in the plug in it self, is effectively the same thing as inserting a reverb in a buss/aux channel, having the dry parameter at -infinity, the wet parameter at 0dB and then sending that audio/instrument track from the send in on the channel strip, at -24dB.
The reason you have the dry parameter on the reverb that is inserted on that buss at -infinity, is because you don't want to add anymore dry sound, than the level that is on your audio/instrument track, thus ruining your mix.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 27, 2010 23:13
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So does that mean that having the send outs on the sound channels at different volume levels won't ruin the mix?
Basically if I have Lead1 sent to Send1 at -20db and Lead2 sent to Send2 at -25db it's ok? In addition I might do the same thing with Pads, but have them going to Send2 at various volumes. http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
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Posted : Jan 28, 2010 04:03
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that's the whole point of using busses/auxes for reverbs, you only use one instance of a reverb plug in, yet you can send many channels to that buss, at varying amounts, thus saving up on CPU.
You are not ruining the mix, just make sure the reverbs that are inserted in the busses, have the dry output at -infinity and the wet output at unity. that way the amount of reverb you are using for each track is governed by the dB value in the send parameter.
I use up to 4-5 different reverbs on a tune, going from tight to long, and maybe a couple of exotic ones with long lush tails, but those I usually use on a specific track so I end up inserting it on the specific channel, insert a compressor, post reverb, and sidechain the fuck of them long tails so that they go whoosh-oumph-woosh-oumph 
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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OpenSourceCode
Datavore
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660
Posted : Jan 28, 2010 04:09
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
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187
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5292
Posted : Jan 28, 2010 04:13
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piko_bianko
Oxya
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Posted : Jan 28, 2010 08:12
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1.
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On 2010-01-28 04:09, OpenSourceCode wrote:
also, if you send more than one instrument to the same reverb(s) it'll make it sound like those instruments are in the same "room" together.
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no, that's only if you send all your channels at the same ammount.
if you send the lead at different level than the percussion, it's like using 2 reverbs.
different level for snaredrum? 3 reverbs.
what type of racist room decides how much reverb to generate for different sound ? 
eg. lead, send 100%,
percussion send 50%,
snaredrum send 10%.
now, how are they in the same room?
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On 2010-01-28 04:13, disco hooligans wrote:
too many different reverbs make things incoherent
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on the contrary, i believe that too many different reverbs, when properly used, make things much more interesting.
extreme |
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-aeon-
Aeon
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Posted : Jan 28, 2010 10:07
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i'm not sure about that... to my ears, smaller send amount in the same room space just suggests the source is 'closer'.
for most reverbs (which aren't particularly dynamic) the reverb itself still has all the same characteristics; the spread of the early reflections is the same, the absolute decay time is the same, the stereo imaging is the same, the filtering properties of the room are the same... the room sound itself is the same. the only difference is how much effected signal is mixed into the room.
just because there is a greater proportion of the source sound in the mix doesn't change the basic characteristics of the room. the impression it gives my ears is more like one of distance and positioning within a room...
i.e. the wetter the mix, the 'further back' or less 'immediate' the source.
i think you can test this yourself by setting up some very different sounding reverbs, and grouping multiple tracks with different send levels. to my ears (or maybe just to my mind!) sending tracks to one reverb does help to place them in a single acoustic space across a pretty wide wet/dry mix. of course the type of algorithm you use and whether or not the reverb responds dynamically to the input level plays a big part in this relationship.
but that's just, like, my opinion man.
and i definitely agree with piko_bianko that lots of reverbs can make things interesting!
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On 2010-01-28 04:09, OpenSourceCode wrote:
it really ties the room together, man
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http://www.myspace.com/aeonaeon |
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Seamoon
Seamoon
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23
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314
Posted : Jan 28, 2010 12:08
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Quote:
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On 2010-01-28 08:12, piko_bianko wrote:
no, that's only if you send all your channels at the same ammount.
if you send the lead at different level than the percussion, it's like using 2 reverbs.
different level for snaredrum? 3 reverbs.
what type of racist room decides how much reverb to generate for different sound ?
eg. lead, send 100%,
percussion send 50%,
snaredrum send 10%.
now, how are they in the same room?
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nope, they are still in the same room, that's how you achiev depth in a mix.
imagine a room where different sound sorces are placed at different spots. the sound sorces which are closer to the listener are more dry than sources whiche are far away from the listening position. the sounds which are far away have less dry amount and more reverb...but still all sources have the reverb sound of this specific room.
http://soundcloud.com/seamoon |
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orgytime
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 28, 2010 12:47
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example:
for me it makes sense to send all perc. to 1 reverb... but often the snare/clap (especially in hiphop genre) got a special long/wide reverb.
so... what you think? what effect does it make, and why not just route it to the same perc. reverb with more send % ?
is it destroying the imagination of the room to use another reverbsetting on the snare? or do they process the snare with additional things what makes it stick again in the mix, regardless using another reverbsetting? (>^_^)>
^^cheers
www.soundcloud.com/orgytime |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
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5292
Posted : Jan 28, 2010 14:32
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Quote:
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On 2010-01-28 12:47, orgytime wrote:
example:
for me it makes sense to send all perc. to 1 reverb... but often the snare/clap (especially in hiphop genre) got a special long/wide reverb.
so... what you think? what effect does it make, and why not just route it to the same perc. reverb with more send % ?
is it destroying the imagination of the room to use another reverbsetting on the snare? or do they process the snare with additional things what makes it stick again in the mix, regardless using another reverbsetting? (>^_^)>
^^cheers
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You can do anything you like, as long as it sounds good, trance is one genre that you can go crazy with reverbs. My only rule of thumb is using tight reverbs on percussion sounds that play a main role in the tune, i.e. a 16 bar djembe loop, that I want some reverb on it, yet in my face. for effects, sweep, one hit notes/percussion, you can go as crazy as you like. but i find my self using 4-5 different reverbs to send the main parts of the mix and maybe a couple of odd ones for FX, specially on some single hit drum samples or synth note.
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On 2010-01-28 08:12, piko_bianko wrote:
1.
Quote:
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On 2010-01-28 04:09, OpenSourceCode wrote:
also, if you send more than one instrument to the same reverb(s) it'll make it sound like those instruments are in the same "room" together.
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no, that's only if you send all your channels at the same ammount.
if you send the lead at different level than the percussion, it's like using 2 reverbs.
different level for snaredrum? 3 reverbs.
what type of racist room decides how much reverb to generate for different sound ?
eg. lead, send 100%,
percussion send 50%,
snaredrum send 10%.
now, how are they in the same room?
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They are in the same room, at different spots. Ideally the early reflections would change considerably as well and the reverb tails would vary as such, but you are changing the direct VS reflected sound, BUT the characteristics are the same.
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On 2010-01-28 08:12, piko_bianko wrote:
2.
Quote:
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On 2010-01-28 04:13, disco hooligans wrote:
too many different reverbs make things incoherent
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on the contrary, i believe that too many different reverbs, when properly used, make things much more interesting.
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Depends if you are into dark psy, ennit. that stuff is meant to sound incoherent. its what the people that listen to it, find it interesting
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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soulfood
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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875
Posted : Jan 28, 2010 14:46
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Yes that reverb really tied the room together, did it not?
I swear by my 2 reverb sends method. It's becoming my signature.
I have one reverb I design as soon as I make my snare that's very short and snappy with a predelay around 1/16. I usually send most of my percussion and sounds from the front of the mix to this bus.
Then I have one reverb that has a shorter predelay and sustains a fair but longer for pads and anything I want to have a large background effect.
Then there's the freakverb option where I'll just wack the reverb right there on the channel for when I want something out of the ordinary.
The most important thing, no matter how many reverbs you use is to make sure the high ends are EQ'd in a similar fashion, which to me is what makes the reverbs sound like they are from the same place.
I usually cut my reverbs somewhere around 12-16k. |
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 28, 2010 15:37
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piko_bianko
Oxya
Started Topics :
57
Posts :
974
Posted : Jan 28, 2010 15:58
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@ aeon, disco hooligans and seamoon:
i get exactly what you're saying and you're both explaining it 100% technically but you're not understanding what i am saying.
the reason i am saying they're not in the same room is because the dry level stays the same.
example:
set a bus with a reverb with 4s tail.
1. send a snaredrum 100%. listen
2. then change to 10%. listen to the snaredrum again.
what we have is a perfectly clear, precise and identical snaredrum in 2 different rooms.
task:
1. create 2 channels. put the same snaredrum on both. plus put the same reverb in each channel (that's 2 instances) and every instance must have the exact same values (i'd prefer tails 2-4s).
2. now solo the first one and set the dry setting to 100%
then solo the second one and set the dry to 50%
(in both cases leave the wet untouched)
what do you have ? 1 snare being close to you and 1 being far away.. but in the same room.-
tweaking the send % is like controlling an echoey room and bringing it further and closer to our sound source, while our sound source stays still in the place we've already put it in the mix even before adding reverb.
extreme |
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soulfood
IsraTrance Junior Member
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875
Posted : Jan 28, 2010 17:03
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I can see where your coming from with that.
I find to my ears it's all about the EQ phase as to me it implies different reflections off of different materials.
Like if you stamp your foot in a tiled bathroom it's more likely you get more high end reflections. But if you stamp your foot on a wooden floor in a church you may get more bass like reflections.
There's so much you can do to bring across similar implications. |
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