willsanquil
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Posted : Oct 26, 2010 21:18:11
Hi Folks So, I have this really great idea for combining music (and possibly video?) and poi...here's the deal:
I spin poi (check my flickr for pictures if you are unaware of what that is) , and have been for a number of years with a specific focus on improv to psy. It would be super cool to incorporate this into my future musical performances, and here's how I plan to do it...
Accelerometers! Rip some out of a wii remote or just buy some relatively durable ones, put them in the poi, have them send MIDI data out wirelessly which gets picked up by Ableton and is then used to.....do cool shit.
I am still relatively new to production and so there are a lot of logistics to work out....like what sort of data would be sent out, what synth parameters would it effect, how would you go about routing the data into ableton in such a way that it would actually be usable, so on and soforth.
So, I need a super leet programmer to help create a program for me to accomplish this task - I expect it to be complex enough that it would certainly merit some payment to the programmer, however I think it would be fantastic on a programmer's resume as its quite atypical and creative (at least, I think so!)
So, if anyone knows a programmer who might have the capability to accomplish something like this, send their info my way or give them mine, I would really appreciate it....Max for Live would maybe be up to the task of accomplishing this? Is this in your opinion a pheasable project?
I am also looking for opinions and feedback as to how to go about properly explaining what it is I need from the programmer - pretty much any input at all regarding this project would be awesome
edit - also would be thankful if anyone has any suggestions for other forums or online communities that I might get responses from if I posted this there....
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records
willsanquil
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Posted : Oct 27, 2010 01:25
Oh, forgot to mention - when this project is completed, it will be open source and available to anyone who cares to mess with it.
Hopefully will be written as a Max for Live device.
Was just thinking abuot how sweet it would be to slowly adjust lfo rate/amount on something with poi
You could really do some crazy shit with ableton's midi devices and macro knobs...create a rack with your favorite FX and then set good min/max values for the parameters you want to change so that even if you quickly go to min/max value it sounds good (or at least not terrible...)
or set a pre-determined tempo-appropriate note length and force the midi data into an appropriate scale/root key
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Posted : Oct 28, 2010 06:08
Ok, I do a bit of programming and a bit of production so I'll bite a bit. I think your idea sounds kinda interesting.
Some of the things your going to need to think about. What does an accelerometer do? From the interwebs "The Wii Remote has the ability to sense acceleration along three axes through the use of an ADXL330 accelerometer."
So this means you are going to have three types of sensor data coming in from one wii "enhanced" controller.
These three streams of data are going to have a constant change if you can spin it at the same speed. You might be able to get these three measurements and come up with an angular velocity. From this you could possibly control a parameter on live. Perhaps a filter or something like that. You could easily change it in live or any other daw. However, your not going to be able to change a whole lot. It seems like an interesting way to interact with someone who is playing the music. But it doesn't seem like you'll be able to do much.
You'll also have to consider the range on the bluetooth transmitter range of the wii controller. The range is about 10 meters normally. It may be less when you hook it up to your poi.
Whoever actually does it should take a look at the Bluetooth program BlueSoleil. It has been proven to successfully connect a Wii Remote to a PC. Still another program (like GlovePIE) is needed to utilize the Wii Remote's protocol and to use the data it offers.
Take a look at the wii controllers wikipedia page. I got a lot of my info in this message from it.
Ascension
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Posted : Oct 28, 2010 07:55
There are a lot of devices that already do this like the iphone (onkel dunkel uses one, and I know some other people who do this with ableton to control an X-Y). Think of it like a wireless joystick.
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group
willsanquil
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Posted : Oct 28, 2010 18:04
Hey guys, thanks for chiming in
I have been lucky enough to have a few friends chime in on this topic over at nw-psy.com, and some updates for people who are interested in the project...
it will not be with wiimote accelerators - nor an iphone (don't like supporting companies with shit business practices/price gouging) - I just used that example as that is the most commonly known one - I will be going with the accelerometer the meets my durability and sensitivity needs - still doing research on that front.
as for the wireless protocol I think I'm going to go with Zigby, but I'm still in the information gathering stage.
As for not being able to control much....idk, are you familiar with ableton's racks/macros/midi effects??? I think there's a lot of possiblity for creative routing and manipulation there...
Even if it doesn't do interesting stuff for audio (which I think it will) it would be cool to have that data for a visual project, or for analyzing poi patterns
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Posted : Oct 28, 2010 19:28
Quote:
On 2010-10-28 18:04, willsanquil wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for chiming in
As for not being able to control much....idk, are you familiar with ableton's racks/macros/midi effects??? I think there's a lot of possiblity for creative routing and manipulation there...
I am familiar with those. Yes you can change any parameter with those. But you could do that with midi anyway. But, your not going to be able to control notes directly. You could do something like have an arpegiator and have the angular velocity control the arpegiator steps or something like that. Perhaps someone else in the background choosing what parameters are being controlled. Or you could have a midi foot switch controller to help you with that. But you are going to have to come up with it instead of juicing us for it. It doesn't sound like you have done much thinking about this sort of thing. Your going to have to dig into the details and really get dirty learning everything.
Quote:
Even if it doesn't do interesting stuff for audio (which I think it will) it would be cool to have that data for a visual project, or for analyzing poi patterns
I think my last few sentences above apply to this too.
willsanquil
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Posted : Oct 28, 2010 20:49
uhhhh????
I have been doing thinking about this for a couple of years now...actually way before I got into audio production. Now that I have a little bit of audio/production knowledge I was reaching out to the community to see if anyone was interested or had any ideas - this project is going to be open source anyways so more ideas and input would hopefully translate into a better result at the end.
Regardless of the direction that this thread takes, this will happen. I am not coming here and saying oh hey I have this great idea, everyone else do it for me??? I am not 'juicing' (lol?) you for ideas, I was simply putting it out there as this community has gifted me with a lot of knowledge and so I like to give back and spread knowledge when I have the opportunity to do so. If I could spread an interface that other performers or artists could use that would be super awesome.
I have already had a couple poi spinner/audio production/programmer people contact me who are interested in this project...
I don't really understand your attitude in some of your posts - you started out pretty positive but then assumed that I hadn't been considering possibilities?? Maybe the intended tone of your replies is being misinterpreted by me - but what I get from (some of) your posts are 'well, doesn't look like you've done much thinking about this - and it doesn't look like you'll be able to do much with it anyways' - and I don't particularly appreciate that...hopefully I'm not being too defensive.
Anyways, I'm off to learn more - but again if anyone has any input or experience that might be relevant to this project I encourage you to post it If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records
tlann
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Posted : Oct 28, 2010 23:16
Quote:
On 2010-10-28 20:49, willsanquil wrote:
I have been doing thinking about this for a couple of years now...actually way before I got into audio production.
Regardless of the direction that this thread takes, this will happen. I am not coming here and saying oh hey I have this great idea, everyone else do it for me??? I am not 'juicing' (lol?) you for ideas, I was simply putting it out there as this community has gifted me with a lot of knowledge and so I like to give back and spread knowledge when I have the opportunity to do so. If I could spread an interface that other performers or artists could use that would be super awesome.
I don't really understand your attitude in some of your posts - you started out pretty positive but then assumed that I hadn't been considering possibilities?? Maybe the intended tone of your replies is being misinterpreted by me - but what I get from (some of) your posts are 'well, doesn't look like you've done much thinking about this - and it doesn't look like you'll be able to do much with it anyways' - and I don't particularly appreciate that...hopefully I'm not being too defensive.
I think the issue is, I've come across quite a few people that have these grand schemes. Usually, I encounter them in a festival environment. Their initial ideas sound pretty good. But the people don't want to put the time into learning the problem. This problem actually involves several disciplines. Hardware, software, and a bit of physics.
I should apologize about my tone. I'm sorry I just get tired of pie in the sky ideas from people who don't want to put the work in. I hear them pretty often
BTW, I checked out your music on soundcloud. I was impressed.
My attitude about assuming you haven't done much thinking about this happens to do with the amount of details you've shared about how you are going to do and use this.
e.g. You weren't sure if you were going to use a Wii remote, or rip it off something. Would Max For Live be a good utility to use this?
Using an accelerometer by itself means having to develop a board with a wireless interface, processor, shock resistant, compact, etc. Not something that it is impossible with someone with a bit of hardware background, but pretty hard otherwise.
The Wii remote has other issues.
I could go on an on about this stuff. It could be a fun project, but you need several skills to do it.
Sorry for being grumpy.
willsanquil
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Posted : Oct 28, 2010 23:37
Yeah the festie scheme thing is pretty prevalent - I remember having this guy talk my ear off for a good hour about this festival he was going to have in vermont where all the dance floors and setup and everything is housed inside tree-houses they were going to build a month or so before the festival....yeah, that didn't happen.
I think we are more in line with each other than our text makes it out to be - not knowing a person *in person* leads to confusion sometimes when reading their thoughts in the digital domain - I accept your apology for being grumpy if you accept mine for being overly defensive
Thank you for the kind words regarding my music btw, still a lot of work to be done before something is dance floor ready but hopefully some day
Truth is, I do realize that there is a lot of work to be done on the project before it comes to fruition, and I don't have all the skills that I need for it to come together - and I'm sure some of my ideas need to be better translated into something that can actually be programmed...and then I actually have to build the poi in such a way that the equipment is not prone to being damaged.
I have experience with building poi and assembling hardware in that I can build a PC from components (but that's no more complicated than putting together a Lego set these days), and I'm building up a good skillset in ableton but I am not a programmer, and that is the main thing I need....thankfully someone on another forum I frequent has volunteered to attempt that portion of it, given that the result is open source and I buy the hardware required...
On that front, I am thinking of using a Zigby as the thing that sends out the data wirelessly:
I'm not sure exactly what this next link is, but my programmer friend said he has one and it might be useful though he's only taken the first class on it sofar:
so with accelerometer, zigby, and teensy I should have enough equipment to collect data, encode it, and send it out wirelessly. The trick will be converting that data to a MIDI stream and then routing it into ableton in such a way that is useable.
willsanquil
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Posted : Oct 29, 2010 00:36
Yeah the guy who suggested the zigby suggested that as well, but I'm still new to this stuff so I'm having trouble conceptualizing what each device actually does..
I mean, the accelerometer collects the data from the x/y/z axis, and then in order to send that I connect the accelerometer to the Teensy?? and then the Teensy is connected to the Zigby thing, which then sends the signal wirelessly to some sort of receiver...
and is that what the item you just linked does? receives wireless signals and just plugs into your USB port?
Fun is the goal Although another part of it is to develop my performance portfolio....I mean....usually when you hire a DJ/Live act you get a set or two....and usually when you hire a fire/LED performer you get a couple of performances over the course of the night...
But..once I get this up and running, and have enough material that's of a high enough quality, I could advertise myself as doing a bunch of shit for your party but you only have to pay me once If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records
tlann
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Posted : Oct 29, 2010 01:00
Quote:
On 2010-10-29 00:36, willsanquil wrote:
Yeah the guy who suggested the zigby suggested that as well, but I'm still new to this stuff so I'm having trouble conceptualizing what each device actually does..
I mean, the accelerometer collects the data from the x/y/z axis, and then in order to send that I connect the accelerometer to the Teensy?? and then the Teensy is connected to the Zigby thing, which then sends the signal wirelessly to some sort of receiver...
and is that what the item you just linked does? receives wireless signals and just plugs into your USB port?
Yeah, you seem to have it down.
Vonoom
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Posted : Oct 30, 2010 11:57
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Posted : Nov 1, 2010 20:02
Hi dude,
Really interesting stuff, i have had the same idea now for quite a while now.
I ended up having to ask a few people advice on this as i am not knowledgeable on accelerometers.
I ended up having a chat to Alex EVP on the matter (he works doing motion capture)
He told me that nintendo Wii controllers will not be able to transmit the data necessary quickly or steadily enough for the concept to work! I was a little gutted.
The accelerometers need to create such a project are very expensive (also very fragile) He also said that the wireless transmitters nessisary would not be cheap either.
So i have sort of put the idea to bed, as i cant afford the equipment (and definatly cant afford to break it ! which as a juggler/spinner i know will eventually happen) Id love to develop the concept properly, but would have to make quite a few prototypes first i think)
My idea was to use midi foot switches as virtual loop pedals / live filters . And have a whole collective of people creating sounds at once (one for kick , one bass, high hats , leads ect.)
Like a virtual band controlled by juggling.
The other issue that sprung up in my head was how are you going to control the third axis, like when they twist round on themselves?
Pois spin round in a straight enough line, also up and down is no issue. But the other axis that pois spin is sometimes a bit chaotic and would not translate well into using as a midi / synth parameter, at least in my mind anyway.
That was why i decided that using a staff would be more controlled.
Anyway, it would be great to keep us posted on any further developments you have on this, if i can help at all on anything just let me know.
shellbound
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Posted : Nov 1, 2010 20:53
Quote:
The other issue that sprung up in my head was how are you going to control the third axis, like when they twist round on themselves?
Pois spin round in a straight enough line, also up and down is no issue. But the other axis that pois spin is sometimes a bit chaotic and would not translate well into using as a midi / synth parameter, at least in my mind anyway.
That was why i decided that using a staff would be more controlled.
that's exactly why it won't really work with poi. the only thing that poi can do is spin around in circle. that's it. as an art form, the beauty comes from the way the spinner positions the body relative to the poi. take away the body and watching spinning poi is not particularly fun (possibly with the exception of flowers). so if the only thing poi can do is spin in a circle at the same rate, then what you have is a very simple LFO. connect it to a filter cutoff or anything else and it's only going to be fun or useful for about 5 seconds. after the novelty wears off, it would just become annoying. even if you throw some stalls in or use wraps (which i don't even know would be possible without destroying the accelerometer) or try to spin along to "dotted 8th" instead of quarter notes of a 4x4, that's still not a whole lot to work with and you would have to be really clean and precise in order not to make it sound too messy.
what might work in the near future is something like microsoft's kinect, where you have a bunch of sensor that can detect your movement. so once that technology becomes cheaper, if someone could build an invisible 3D cube by positioning these sensors around, that would give a lot of possibilities to the dancer for controlling the music. and instead of poi or even staff, i think the most impressive and actually functional would be someone doing liquid/poping/locking/digitz (if the sensors are actually sensitive enough for this). they could be configured in such a way that the lower body and upper body would control different sets of parameters. it would be like dancing inside of a huge theremin.
imagine what a guy like this could do with this:
i guess even the accelerometer idea would work better if you just give something based on that to this dude. but this would work better:
So, I have this really great idea for combining music (and possibly video?) and poi...here's the deal:
