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Scales - basic questions
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 11, 2010 18:47
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Excuse me for my ego message.I misunderstood sth,and I have a bad day for something happend today I should not post anything in such behaviour.
  https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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Ascension
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Posted : May 11, 2010 19:31
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Quote:
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On 2010-05-11 17:50, Trip- wrote:
Ascension, you've got a point.
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Good to know I'm not completely off the mark here  .
Especially with electronic production there are so many other facets to composition that it seems (to me) that trying to use complex scales is better suited for more seasoned producers. There's sooooo much else to learn that will enhance the quality of production that I don't see much point in someone who is new to this AND new to music theory to bother themselves with a complex idea they will most likely not apply properly. *Not talking about anyone in this thread in particular, just making general statements.
The way I see it is with real instruments you get the same type of tone from each note on a scale (when you play a C1 on a clarinet, it's going to sound like what a C1 on a clarinet usually sounds like- one reason why people can identify notes). With electronic production you have more tools to enhance/change the sound you are creating, so instead of using different scale progressions to get a unique sound, you can synthesize it and create relations between the synthesized sounds rather than their note on a scale.
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : May 11, 2010 19:42
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Well, it's still good to ask and learn though - I rather reffered to what you said about "not doing it properly". Some musical patterns remind me of mathematics, and just the way to present things in different ways. This applies to using a set of rules.
Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
AgalactiA |
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 11, 2010 20:00
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Yeah that's what I assumed u were talking about. I just wanted to emphasize that there are other ways to make sounds and the relation between sounds interesting with electronic synthesis that doesn't involve scales and actually using scales properly is a more advanced technique (not something I've really even began to scratch the surface of). I just don't want people thinking, hey I used this ethnic scale, why doesn't my music sound super cool . Maybe it also bothers me that people find it a point to call out a scale they're using, but in reality they could have used a normal scale and gotten the same result. Just things to consider....
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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the five assed monkey
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 12, 2010 01:53
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take me for example i know scales, chords, improvisation (played jazz guitar) i can write a melody with chord progression in a sec BUT im very beginner in the other stuff like making good sounds and production skills stuff so im suck i think in psytrance all that music theory its not coming first u can always play around some root note. if u wanna play like simon or i-zen u need to know some music theory.. |
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 12, 2010 09:24
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Willsanquil, I am guessing that your question is about what notes sound well together. The general rule is that a minor second (a semitone) or a major seventh (5.5 tones) will be unpleasant, a major second (a tone) or a minor seventh (5 tones) are not quite as bad and anything from a third through a sixth is fine. Except for an augmented fourth / diminished fifth, which is exactly 3 tones and used to be considered Devil’s interval. But those are classical rules. Jazz uses both major and minor seconds to spice things up. And “unsettling music” of all sorts (Black Sabbath being a prime example) uses “devil’s fifth” regularly. So, it’s ultimately up to you to determine what clashes and what does not.
Although, if you play all instruments in a regular minor and a sitar in let’s say Phrygian, you may run into a problem, when some notes end up in unpleasant intervals. For example, you may have a synth playing a c->b->a move in A minor (Aeolian), while your sitar plays a c->b-flat->a in A Phrygian. B and B-flat will clash. So, it’s usually a good idea to keep notes that play at the same time in the same scale. There is nothing wrong with changing scales for a different phrase, though. You’ll hear it quite often that there is a phrase in a major scale followed by a phrase in a relative minor or a phrase in a major key a fourth or a fifth above the main key of the song, for example. In Baroque you’ll hear a phrase (or two) jumping from one key to another around the circle of fifth. As long as all your instruments play in the same scale at the same time, it’s fine.
Orgytime, you got it right about accents. It’s more or less about velocity. What notes you stress (and what kind of rhythm those accents create) is almost as important for the mood of a tune as its scale is. In some instruments, accented notes will often have a more pronounced transient part – beyond what you would expect from looking at the overall loudness. In bowed instruments, for example, you can accent notes without making them louder at all. It’s done by pressing the bow harder and accelerating it faster for the very first split-second of the note. So, in a synth it would be like leaving the velocity the same but boosting the attack.
About the base notes – they would match the chord progression. Usually they are the base note of a chord, but often they are just one of the notes in this chord. So, in your example a C in the bass can belong to C major (CEG), A minor (ACE) or F major (FAC). We can figure it out the same way for other notes in your bass line. It does not mean that the modes will change every time you play a different bass note. A chord in your progression will change (which is more like a temporary key change). But the overall tune will be in the same key (in your example – most likely C major). In the old times it was easy to determine the key note, since every tune would come to it in the end. Modern music kinda messed it up.
And the difference between a bass line for C major and for A minor comes from what I described in the previous paragraph. It’s true that these keys use the same notes. But an A minor chord is (ACE) and a C major chord is (CEG). So, a bass note for A minor can be any of the A minor chord notes (and most likely will be A). And a bass note for C major can be any of the C major chord notes (and most likely will be C). A bass note for C major can not be an A then; just like a bass note for A minor can not be a G. But if the bass plays a C or an E, then we can not tell the difference – we have to see what chord is playing too.
Time Traveler, what you were talking about (c-e-g, e-g-c and g-c-e sounding similar) was chord inversion. These are variants of the same chord. In a chord progression the chords change beyond just inverting them.
Sorry about the novel. Hope some of it is helpful.
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Kryten
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 12, 2010 11:24
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Quote:
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On 2010-05-12 09:24, Maine Coon wrote:
....
Sorry about the novel. Hope some of it is helpful.
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Dude, don't apologize for helping! 
Thanks for that great post, it cleared up some confusion I always had about this.
I had some problems while experimenting with a simple chord progression and a bassline. Both were in key, but the bass had few notes which were not in the actual playing chords of the pad...although it was "in key" it somehow sounded wrong... After reading this thread I think I now know what to do... |
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 12, 2010 11:54
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oh yeah inversion.So it was the first before I corrected myself wrong - my comment towards this above. That it has one relative note in both chords when progressing chords.I think I mentioned that too ,I wasn'T sure and my english means are not well.
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Like from Db chord an easy progression would be to Gb - Ab - and back to Db .
Or another one from E - G# - A - F# - E .
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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orgytime
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Posted : May 12, 2010 12:25
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 12, 2010 19:19
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^
That's fine. I didn't like cats until my little sister found a newborn kitten in the middle of the road and brought him home. I became a cat person in a matter of a couple of weeks. I also know a guy who didn't like children until he had two of them  |
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