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Scales - basic questions
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 10, 2010 01:48:29
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Hi there. Couldn't find a satisfactory answer via search...so here goes.
Scales. When I started 'producing' a couple months ago, I barely knew what pitch/key meant (I have no musical background, and cannot read music or hear what notes are which, nor can I play an instrument), and so I just picked out notes going off of what sounded good at the time. Didn't work out so well, but then I found out about scales! sweet!
so on my last couple of tracks what I have been doing is just arbitrarily picking a root key based on a track by an artist I like in the tempo range I'm going for, and a minor scale to go with it, and folding down my sequencer window so that I can only put notes in that scale and only that scale, for all instruments, for the whole track.
Definitely a big improvement over my previous work, but that seems like a very ... childish? interpretation of scales?
Do you use multiple scales in one song? Like, you start out in scale x then y after 16/32 bars?
do multiple scales get played at the same time? like you have a lead 1 going in one scale and lead 2 going in another scale?
For instance I hear a lot of indian/asian/eastern/'foreign' instruments being played in tracks that I like, and I often hear the comment 'oh I liked the scale that you played in' or something to that effect? I've also read in a couple places the goa is written sometimes in eastern scales, and Cosmosis has said a couple of times that he loves the spanish gypsy scale? I can see all the scales at http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/
no problem but...
Any insight into the world of scales and theory surrounding them would be great  and I'm not expecting a set formula or anything, but I would like to know the basic musical rule structures first before setting out to break all the rules. thanks!
  If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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Sanathana
Sanathana
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410
Posted : May 10, 2010 02:10
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dj chichke
Chichke
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Posted : May 10, 2010 02:35
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you are not supposed to change scales in track to sound pro. it's can be very interesting but it's not something you have to learn. you don't need to do it to make psytracne that for sure.
learn some chords progressions on scale you like can be good for you. the scale acctualy is the connection between 8 notes. there are many scales. you don't need to know all of them.
i think most of the psytracks are at the natural minor scale. that's the type of scale i like by the way.
if you hear some melody and you think it's sound inidan so it's because it's an indian scale. or arb, japanese, spanish gypsy etc...
explore it and see what scale you like...than learn some chords progressions on the scale. |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 10, 2010 02:35
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@ sanantha: Alright, thats cool, I figured sticking with just one scale was pretty novice musically speaking - though those links while instructive are not particularly what I am looking for...
I have been reading the past couple months about chord progression, interval, whole step half step, oblique motion, blah blah. I understand enough of it in theory for the moment (though of course more is always good), but I'm more interested in practical applications of writing psychadelic trance music - ie what scales are generally used, how you go about picking the scales that you do use, stuff like that
like, you say that it can be clearly heard sometimes - that may be true if you have a musical background and are used to that sort of thing - i recently met up with another producer and asked him a question about the scales that he used, and his answer was that he didn't really think about it, as he'd been making music for so long that it was second nature to him.
I completely understand that attitude, but I am not there.
Some examples would be great...like you say that in a bridge you would have a 'complimentary' scale to the main scale - how do you go about picking this complimentary scale?
Is there some general knowledge out there that I'm missing, like oh minor scales and spanish gypsy scales mix well, but lydian and major scales mix horribly?
or scales you're fond of...scale transitions that you've done that have worked well...
@chicke - thanks dude that helps, I have been using natural minor in my last track and I like it...
so, one way to do it might be to write most of the track components in a natural minor scale then have some sitar/random foreign instrument playing in its native scale? If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 10, 2010 16:33
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You shouldn't arbitrarily pick a root note. Most people use the note that their kick is for their root note. You should at least make sure that your kick and bass are in tune with each other- incase you missed this.
If you're just starting out I wouldn't recommend spending too much time on scales imo. Using normal minor scales for all of your music should be a good enough start, there's plenty of other things to master first.
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Padmapani
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431
Posted : May 10, 2010 17:44
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Quote:
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so, one way to do it might be to write most of the track components in a natural minor scale then have some sitar/random foreign instrument playing in its native scale?
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no that would not work (especially when you're just starting out). i'd rather keep the song in natural minor at first as ascension already mentioned and check out other scales at a later stage.
but the phrygian scale is really nice and mysterious sounding, i use it in about 2/3 of my tracks. |
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orgytime
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 10, 2010 17:50
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jup i used alot of phrygian stuff in my old metal times xD the first step in the scale is also just a halfnote wich can give it a evil feeling xD
www.soundcloud.com/orgytime |
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Trip-
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : May 10, 2010 19:59
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Since you've just started to learn scales and you quickly want to implement this knowledge in your music, what will be said here might only introduce more confusion.
You should concentrate on one basic scale - like a Minor scale. You can learn by yourself, if you are willing, how the scale sounds like, how it's ordered in an octave, simply melodic content you think of on this scale - you could start with the key of A. Tons of electronic music written in this scale, without introducing any progression. I would find this interesting back in the days...
I'm not sure what you mean by "folding down my sequencer window" - but it sounds like something I would suggest against.
Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
AgalactiA |
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 10, 2010 21:11
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Quote:
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On 2010-05-10 19:59, Trip- wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "folding down my sequencer window" - but it sounds like something I would suggest against.
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He's using the Fold feature in ableton where you can have only selected notes available on the piano roll.
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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the five assed monkey
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 10, 2010 21:42
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search for some improvisation lessons u can learn from that alot.. also try mix scales with arpeggios its very nice |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 10, 2010 22:48
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Quote:
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On 2010-05-10 19:59, Trip- wrote:
Since you've just started to learn scales and you quickly want to implement this knowledge in your music, what will be said here might only introduce more confusion.
You should concentrate on one basic scale - like a Minor scale. You can learn by yourself, if you are willing, how the scale sounds like, how it's ordered in an octave, simply melodic content you think of on this scale - you could start with the key of A. Tons of electronic music written in this scale, without introducing any progression. I would find this interesting back in the days...
I'm not sure what you mean by "folding down my sequencer window" - but it sounds like something I would suggest against.
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perhaps I shouldn't have given the impression that I'm 100% completely new - none of what has been said sofar has confused me, and I have been doing a lot of reading about theory, scales, whatnot for the past 7 months or so, more just wanted to clarify that I wasn't interpreting things the wrong way.
I love the comments about favorite scales to use and stuff (like phyrgian being mysterious...)because all I need to do is look up the scale, plug it into the piano roll and play around with it - doesn't require really any thought at all.
I understand that its a very un-orthodox way to learn music as I'm not actually physically playing an instrument or deriving the scales with a half step/whole step type pattern, but all I care about is making the music - and while I intend to learn how to play the keyboard eventually its not on the top of my list at the moment
as for the kick/bass being in tune - I have a pack of kicks which are broken up into their respective root notes but besides that I just go with what kind of sounds good at the time - is there a way to find out the note of a kick without...hearing it? I have no ability to detect key with my ears.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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vipal
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 10, 2010 22:58
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Quote:
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On 2010-05-10 21:11, Ascension wrote:
He's using the Fold feature in ableton where you can have only selected notes available on the piano roll.
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is theremaybe an equivalent in cubase5 for that? or a midiplug?
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 10, 2010 23:04
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you can use one favourite scale for a dozen of songs and all of them can sound totaly different.
You can build many totaly different melodies from one scale.
It's good to find first one scale and internalize in memory,play more the instrument and enjoy the scale truely,than just dig theory imo.
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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Kryten
IsraTrance Junior Member
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11
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333
Posted : May 11, 2010 00:56
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Hey there,
I think I am somewhat at the same stage on knowledge to music theory. These posts have been really helpful so far...thanks.
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orgytime
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 11, 2010 01:01
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what confuses me alot,
lets say we have a peace of music (C major), you can play every of those scales over it, it just changes the root key (or starting point) right? because every note of each scale also fits in the scale of C-major.
C-ionian (major)
D-dorian
E-phrygian
F-lydian
G-mixolydian
A-aeolian (minor)
B-locrian
let me tell my problem a little closer, sooo..
the only thing the scales differ is the definition of the rootkey?
i know, that playing some specific parts of each scale makes the typical feeling for each scale (aeolian for example "sad" feeling).
but why is that?
does it also depend of the key of the bass, wich tell what scale it is?
for example:
[Bass] -- [Scale]
C ------- C ionian
C ------- C ionian
C ------- C ionian
C ------- C ionian
E -------- E phrygian
E -------- E phrygian
G -------- G mixolydian
G -------- G mixolydian
so does the bass define, in wich scale we are (wich feeling we can get?)
very confusing...
or can we play for example a aeolian scale (A-note rootkey) over a bass (C-note)?
im gonna shoot myself haha
www.soundcloud.com/orgytime |
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