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Russian site has ripped Cytopia.org tracks
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : Jul 25, 2007 07:22
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
as the legions of paid composers, performers, and productions aptly demonstrate, music has been commodified for centuries. you don't honestly think the average peasant could just rock up at the new Montiverdi gig in the 17th century and enjoy the 'free' music, do you? really? |
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You talk about last few centuries, I talk about 200000 years (or 200 centuries) of human history and development of music. 17th century is recent history if you think about things in the original direction of development. That means from the birth of human music to present day and not from present to past.
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
do you work? |
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Yes!
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
and thus, at a stroke, you invalidate countless millenia of human achievement.
to take two opposing examples, no-one asked Newton to write the Principa Mathematica. no-one ordered Bill Gates to start Microsoft. and i'm sure no-one asked you to work for free...? |
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Newton wrote the Principa Mathematica in order to sell some copies to the public?
Microsoft is human achievement? Sorry but I don't see a point.
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
wait, so there's a distinction to be made between filesharing between friends and filesharing at large... i thought music just wanted to be freed from enslavement, like it used to be. do you think it is acceptable to share music on a internet-wide level provided there is no advertising revenue? |
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No. The author of the music should decide what to do with his music. I agree with sharing a CD I've bought with few friends but I don't agree with file sharing at large. Regardless to my point of view about music, art and money I don't support distributing authors work without permission or adequate compensation.
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
right, which is why all David Bowie albums stay the same. or, er, not... 
seriously; you speak as if the creative/artistic impulse and the desire to market the resulting product are entirely irreconcilable concepts. this is, as far as i can see, wrong. |
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Have you ever heard of the term "top down culture creation"? Or have you ever read Marshall McLuhan and about his idea of "print"? If not than we can not debate this issue.
You've quoted my statement...
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| And to be honest I worry more about the rich nations buying guns for more than 400 billion... |
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...and statement that is not mine...
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| Philosphical debates aside, this is the reality of the music business, and believe me it won't change, so quit complaining. |
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... and than you comment that with:
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
ah, the tried and true 'if you don't like it, go home' attitude.
are you suggesting that just because an unpleasant situation exists, there's suddenly no justification for seeking change?
by your logic, human beings have always traded weapons. it's just the reality of the situation. shouldn't we just give up and accept it? but wait, i thought you were concerned about the arms trade... |
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...but obviously you've made a mistake combining my post with another users post.
Obviously I don't have anything against philosophical argues and I believe that we have to seek change all the time. So on that one we actually agree.
Next few quotes are also not mine so I'll skip them.
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
if they're purely profit-motivated entities, why do some artists set lower prices on sites like cytopia? |
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Nothing has only one motive. Every event that takes place and each manifestation has multiple causes, motives and usually a bit of coincidence or synchronicity. Lower prices are obviously one of the oldest market strategies for standing out on the market. I assume that it was the main reason for that strategy.
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
of course someone who wants to sell something is concerned with profit... it's inescapable, no? |
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my favorite history fact is that during the old kingdom of Japan in the times of Samurai there was a special law about trading. People who lived from buying and selling ware not allowed to carry their goods on wheals nor on horseback or any other way. They had to carry goods on their own back and the punishment for not respecting that low was instant execution without trial.
Now I don't agree with such punishment because I believe nobody has a right to take someones life, but I kind of agree with the attitude towards the profit oriented behavior since it directly degrades all human qualities and gives rise to endless non human ambitions to gain wealth and power over those without wealth and power.
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
fundamentally, people who download music just want something for free.
ethics indeed... |
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Again, I agree with that. I've never said that it is ethical to download music without authors permission. My argue was the ethics of selling art. Art is non functional in nature and selling anything is quite functional. Obviously there's tons of music that don't qualify as art in the first place but due to ignorant use of language we refer to every composer, singer or performer as artist but that is a separate debate.
  "It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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Enertopia
Enertopia
Started Topics :
99
Posts :
676
Posted : Jul 25, 2007 07:36
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-aeon-
Aeon
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
546
Posted : Jul 25, 2007 16:04
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On 2007-07-25 07:22, shamantrixx wrote:
You talk about last few centuries, I talk about 200000 years (or 200 centuries) of human history and development of music. 17th century is recent history if you think about things in the original direction of development. That means from the birth of human music to present day and not from present to past. |
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i'm afraid i'm not knowledgeable enough about our prehistory to comment. once we get back beyond the written word it gets very difficult to draw any real conclusions, don't you think?
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
do you work?
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right, excellent. so - would you mind doing your job for free?
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Newton wrote the Principa Mathematica in order to sell some copies to the public?
Microsoft is human achievement? Sorry but I don't see a point. |
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the point is that you said that worth can only be ascribed to something if it is 'ordered' or requested:
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| I don't believe that any of received an order to produce music for the world. When you order your meal in a restaurant it's perfectly reasonable to pay for it. When you request something to be done just for you than it should be paid. In contrast to that when you do it because you feel like doing it and nobody had request that you do it... well I don't see the reason and foundations for any kind of expectations. |
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no-one expected Newton to write the Principa. and no-one ordered Windows. is it fair that Microsoft should sell their operating system? do you think Newton ought to have accepted employment based on his fame?
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| No. The author of the music should decide what to do with his music. |
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perhaps i have misunderstood your posts; i thought your argument was essentially that a musician ought to have no control over the distribution of their work whenever potential profit is involved.
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| I agree with sharing a CD I've bought with few friends but I don't agree with file sharing at large. Regardless to my point of view about music, art and money I don't support distributing authors work without permission or adequate compensation. |
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i'm glad you don't support unauthorised distribution. perhaps i misconstrued your posts, conflating your wider position on the art/money thing with your specific code of conduct re: downloading.
out of interest, what do you consider adequate compensation?
surely not... it couldn't be... money?
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| Have you ever heard of the term "top down culture creation"? Or have you ever read Marshall McLuhan and about his idea of "print"? If not than we can not debate this issue. |
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i have studied creativity and culture; i have no experience of McLuhan's work. i hope this won't prevent any further discussion, however...
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| You've quoted my statement...
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| And to be honest I worry more about the rich nations buying guns for more than 400 billion... |
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...and statement that is not mine... |
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all apologies. no excuses. my bad!
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
if they're purely profit-motivated entities, why do some artists set lower prices on sites like cytopia? |
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Nothing has only one motive. Every event that takes place and each manifestation has multiple causes, motives and usually a bit of coincidence or synchronicity. Lower prices are obviously one of the oldest market strategies for standing out on the market. I assume that it was the main reason for that strategy.
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that's kind of what i was getting at. life is complicated, and events generally don't fit into simplistic binary patterns; as such, it is not practical to assume that any artist who seeks to sell their work is acting unreasonably.
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| Again, I agree with that. I've never said that it is ethical to download music without authors permission. My argue was the ethics of selling art. Art is non functional in nature and selling anything is quite functional. Obviously there's tons of music that don't qualify as art in the first place but due to ignorant use of language we refer to every composer, singer or performer as artist but that is a separate debate. |
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indeed  broadly speaking i think we are all actually on the same side of the fence here... almost everyone is willing to accept that the capitalist system as it exists now is far from perfect; that artists deserve to be able to get some form of compensation for the distribution of their work; and that the music industry has its flaws.
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On 2007-07-24 16:20, Enertopia wrote:
Aeon.
...
Best of wishes.
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and best of wishes to you, Enertopia and to @ktif too; take care
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neuromantik
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
593
Posted : Jul 25, 2007 20:36
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@Aeon
You make some interesting points and express your views elegantly. For that you have my respect.
However, I have not heard one proposed solution to the problem, only petty bickering over the concept of money, macroeconimics, the nature of patrons, and a brief history of performing arts. Maybe someone would care to enlighten us on the philosophy of meditating on information sharing and I think we're all set
I'm sorry if I was pessimistic when I wrote that market forces dictate what music is worth and not the artist, it is sad I agree but it is the truth. I don't want to spit out the usual rhetoric such as "adapt or die", or "ditch the distribs/shop/label business model" because in reality there is no real alternative, so "golden hammer" if you will that will erase this problem.
So why not propose solutions instead besides the tired "I'm complaining so that the consumer can be more aware that his copyright infringement of my music is depriving me of doing what I love in life 24/7". I welcome you to 98% of the world population, it sucks here but you learn to live with it.
Regarding gear and such, I'm sorry to be so cold hearted but I know A LOT of semi professional musicians who have much lesser needs to make music (sometimes only a fender + guitar or drum set). I don't see why electronic musicians need to have so many expensive toys and attempt to rationalize the value of their music based on their initial investment. Is the concept of writing music, jamming with friends, ironing out the kinks, and THEN going someplace to record, add production quality and master so lost nowadays that litterally EVERYONE must be able to professionally RECORD/PRODUCE/MASTER to make something muscially worthwhile?
Ok the last point is not really relevant so I'll start with some solutions that I read often in forums:
- Declare war on Russia (Allofmp3 and all those other blatant disregard for intellectual property is threatening our western lifestyles). Invade them!!
- Taxing the internet (A fixed tax of like 10eur/month which would go directly to the artists. However a better distribution model than what those nazis BMI/ASCAP/SESAC use is a requirement).
- Cutting down the prices of CDs to less than 5$/cd. More partygoers would buy them I'm sure because let's be serious, CD prices in the Western world are still way to high.
- Better packaging/stickers/blurbs/stories and whatnot for me are not working. Instead, maybe in addition to selling your tracks, you can also sell un-bounced versions of them (multiple tracks) and license them under Creative Commons that way your listeners will be able to remix them free of charge. It worked for NIN I believe and I think I read in some music mag that they gained a lot more respect because of it.
Seriously, do you artists want to be remembered by your fans as "Metallicas" or "NINs"?  |
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fuzzikitten
Annunaki
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
603
Posted : Jul 25, 2007 21:46
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On 2007-07-25 20:36, neuromantik wrote:
do you artists want to be remembered by your fans...
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What fans? We're all producers. Fans are for rock'n'roll and hiphop. |
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Mindfly
Mindfly
Started Topics :
15
Posts :
189
Posted : Jul 26, 2007 11:40
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I don't care 'bout being remembered by any other than my unborn daughter... music creation is not 'bout being honored in any way, it's about expressing your self in one way or another...
If the createur decides he/she wants to be payed for the creation, it's solely up to that one person. It is after all their creation!
If the consumer wants to own that particular track, he/she pays for it! Period.
If he/she doesn't want to pay for it - then find some other tracks to listen to... it's not that hard is it!? There's legally free music everywhere.
You are beautiful, no matter what they say! |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
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549
Posted : Jul 26, 2007 17:28
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On 2007-07-25 16:04, -aeon- wrote:
once we get back beyond the written word it gets very difficult to draw any real conclusions, don't you think?
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No. I think it's quite simple. Nothing is so easy as imagining life before written word, money, cities and states. I imagine nights by the fire place, drumming and chanting to the beat with the background noise of forest, sea shore, river or something else. Much like todays party event without mega kW sound systems, high tech equipment and entrance fee(en-trance???).
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
right, excellent. so - would you mind doing your job for free?
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right. I often work for free. I played for free on many entrance free parties and since I'm a designer I've made many graphics for free events. If anyone has a project that is non profit I will be glad to work and contribute free of charge. My experience with money, work and wealth is that more you give it away even more seams to come back to you... in one form or another.
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
the point is that you said that worth can only be ascribed to something if it is 'ordered' or requested: |
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No. I said that you should expect to BE PAID only for the thing someone asked you to do or ordered them from you. Things you do out of your self have a value (not monetary thou) even greater than thing you do based upon order or expectations.
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
out of interest, what do you consider adequate compensation?
surely not... it couldn't be... money? |
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in order for something to be adequate it requires a certain balance and it should not be harmful to anything. So any method that will make everyone happy will be adequate... even if it happens to be money.
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
i have no experience of McLuhan's work. i hope this won't prevent any further discussion, however... |
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of course it won't but for the person with your capacity I would strongly recommend reading McLuhan. I'd be more than glad to present his point of view but if you read his work you'll understand why is it impossible to present his ideas in any other way than directly reading his work. I'm sure you'll find it revealing and brilliant.
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
all apologies. no excuses. my bad!
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No need to apologize... we all make mistakes. It is what makes us human on our way to our godhood.
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On 2007-07-24 15:43, -aeon- wrote:
broadly speaking i think we are all actually on the same side of the fence here... |
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As long as we are all humans we ARE on the same side of the fence... it could not be any different. But being human enables us to do all sort of things and among many of them we're capable to "act as" or in other words to pretend that we're something else. Even believing to be self that is separate from not self is in a way an act of "acting as". Acting to be something that you know you're not is a double bind and it can quite heavily distort reality, perception, emotions and personality. When that is the case we can look very different, distant and violent to each other. The truth is however far far from it... the truth is that we are all one, but sometimes it's hard to see the truth because our ideas don't support that truth.
Thank you for understanding and quite inspiring conversation. Stay well.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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Enertopia
Enertopia
Started Topics :
99
Posts :
676
Posted : Jul 26, 2007 17:51
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I have just bought a really nice pair of Nike shoes, very confortable and very good looking, really feels great when you walk with them, I only paid 6o dollars, I asked, can I get them for free, they said, no. I was very dissapointed since, I was expecting them for free, I said, I do a lot of free music, they did not care.
Then, I went to Levi's and bought a nice dress to my wife, I paid 65 dollars, My wife really liked it, then she went to Sun Pac and bought me 2 super nice T shirts, all cotton, super confortable.
Then, I went to KB toys and bought a nice piano toy for my daughter, I paid 15 dollars, she loves it!!!
Thank god I get paid every week.
I can go to the supermarket every saturday and get my fridge filled with good food.
Now shamantrixx , do you live with your parents?
If you do....and I hope not, stop living on their pockets you BUM.
Working for free?!?!? 
www.myspace.com/enertopiapsy |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
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549
Posted : Jul 26, 2007 21:34
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No I don't live with my parents but I charge my work when I'm working for companies (design of product packages, food etc.). I use to charge gigs on parties with entrance fee but I no longer play for money. I play only on entrance free events and than I play for free. I think that explains me enough and I hop that we're done with that.
Now I don't feel that I have to explain my self to you especially after you've been so nice to inform me about your point of view regarding freedom and nationalities. I really don't see any point in debating with you about complex issues of musical values when we disagree about basic human values. I would like to avoid involving that topic into this debate since this is not a forum where that kind of debate could grow and flower to some meaning.
You said that you will ignore my posts in the future and I believe that it is the right thing to do as long as we are in that particular disagreement. I don't find it useful to debate about what kind of flowers should we plant in front of the house while the house is on fire.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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Enertopia
Enertopia
Started Topics :
99
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676
Posted : Jul 26, 2007 21:45
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Good to know that you get paid for your designing arts.
Now, what would you do if you post samples of your work on your web site and a company just downloads one of your designs and uses it without your permission.
Now, be real.
www.myspace.com/enertopiapsy |
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Enertopia
Enertopia
Started Topics :
99
Posts :
676
Posted : Jul 26, 2007 22:14
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And to add some spice to the BS, if you support basics in arts and believe that the true art comes from a very primitive motive.
I really don't believe that you use blood ( Human or Animal) or burnt wood in order to design your graphics.
I strongly believe that you use a nice computer that consumes MALICE electricity in which destroy our beautiful world.
And I strongly believe that at least one the software or filters you use are from P2P sites.
Please, stop posting fabulous contradictions, If I could send you back in time 200 centuries back in order for you to play an exotic drum butt naked by the shore.
You would pay me with all your euros by buying whatever I want to sell you for not sending you back at that era.
www.myspace.com/enertopiapsy |
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Enertopia
Enertopia
Started Topics :
99
Posts :
676
Posted : Jul 26, 2007 22:26
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And if you still believe that money, capitalizm, music and arts for money are wrong.
You are always welcome to do charity work in my house.
You will get a free room, free meals and a nice djembe.
All you have to do is have the house clean when I come back from work, and keep my studio clean for when I want to compose.
You will practice what you preach and I will practice
what I preach, we can both be happy.
PM if you are interested.
www.myspace.com/enertopiapsy |
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Enertopia
Enertopia
Started Topics :
99
Posts :
676
Posted : Jul 26, 2007 22:31
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People with heart should not charge money for anything!
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Oh my only god.
You have to find a way of making more money man.
You need it, believe me, you will be much happier.
You will be able to go to the dentist, maybe you need some fixes.
Maybe, you can buy your girl a nice perfume or take her out to a nice restaurant, or maybe you can get a more reliable car.
You could even donate some to the poor on the streets.
Or you could even buy some new CDs from psyshop, you know....the more you make, the more CDs you can buy, and believe it or not, The artists willbe happy.
If you make more money man.....You will make everybody happier, even your country, that means, you might pay more taxes.
Maybe you can buy your parents something they always wanted or need.
Or even get the new Photoshop for your MODERN designs.
http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/photoshopextended/
Costs only like one thousand bucks.
www.myspace.com/enertopiapsy |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : Jul 27, 2007 01:06
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You know... that voice inside your skull that's forcing you to write 4 posts after I've pointed out inadequacy of any further debate can be silenced. It's called meditation and it's quite useful. That kind of silence in your head can make you really happy... happy beyond buying presents and making more money.
Now if you get your kicks from imagining me as poor little bastard who is frustrated by the lack of money ; I'm fine with that and you're welcome to continue doing so but keep in mind that you're doing damage to your self. I obviously don't care about the reputation of my web ID nor about anyones believes regarding my virtual ID. But you seem to be deeply concern about those few letters on the screen and that's not good. Having personal identity is harmful enough but it's unavoidable. But when identity develops it's own identity it's becoming multiple personality disorder and you get far, far away from what you really are. So please, take care!
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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Enertopia
Enertopia
Started Topics :
99
Posts :
676
Posted : Jul 27, 2007 01:36
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