| Author
|
RMS and Mastering!!!
|
Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Feb 3, 2009 18:45
|
well im not here to argue , said what i think and what took me long time to learn.
what you say about such low volumes is right with 1999 plugins that were not so transparent as todays limiters.
until i dont loose anything imo as well the meters show my stereo picture stays ok and not start to get the "triangle" in the lower end of it i dont care i know thats what im after , as loud as possible while still not loosing anything. -2.5 RMS is way way over what i think is allright. btw there are diffrent ways to read rms , lets make sure we all talk about the ones come up in PAZ analizer default ? cause even if you change something there or if you using RME meters then the numbers are just diffrent. what i call -10DB is -5DB on RME cards..
  www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
|
|
|
~d2~
Inactive User
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
751
Posted : Feb 3, 2009 18:54
|
|
ThiagoNAKA
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
104
Posts :
1047
Posted : Feb 3, 2009 19:02
|
Loudness war!!! 
Iīve always been agains it, and I hated the Metallicaīs new album(alhouthg iīve liked the tracks). -2.5 dB is just insane!!! Point for Guitar Hero Unreleased Mixes! lol
But I always think my music could be louder.... 
Back to the topic: -10 dB is really OK for psytrance. It can have nice depth, althought listening music throught times shows me that thereīs not an ok number. Itīs a fact older music has so much depth, not present at nowadays "in your face music". But itīs hard to go back there also.
LOADING... |
|
|
|
~d2~
Inactive User
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
751
Posted : Feb 3, 2009 19:31
|
I would like to share an observation....please don't all go ape shit.
I would go for -14 dB RMS for mix and -12dB RMS for the mastering.
Back to my observation. After lurking for a while and reading through the posts here at isratrance I have begun to see why so much of psy is over compressed. Alot of people seem to be mastering themselves and I do really wonder if they have the tools to do it. I certainly don't. Speakers compress as well!!!! How many people here master? How many have a calibrated monitoring system? Where do these myths of 0dB kicks come from? And single dB figures for RMS?
Does anyone think you can master a track on a pair of Behringers and a M-audio soundcard?
Why do people seem to reject good practices from general engineering? Oh its Psy trance its different?
It is good to talk. I am willing to learn other peoples views 
We don't ever stop learning when it comes to production, that's for sure.
|
|
|
|
ThiagoNAKA
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
104
Posts :
1047
Posted : Feb 3, 2009 20:03
|
Indeed!
I do master my own stuff for playing, but I had some releases properly mastered(Sonic Vista Studios, Preference Mastering, Silicon Sound). And I hear the difference.
The problem is to fight against it. Even good mastering houses pushes the limit. Not so fast, but just take a look at a pdf at TC. Itīs someting bigger than anything else. Throught the years(even with better gear) the number of "clipped samples"/loudness only increased.
About the myths: I donīt know outside psytrance, but here u have a lot of humors... And itīs funny cause u never know where it came from. lol
LOADING... |
|
|
|
~d2~
Inactive User
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
751
Posted : Feb 3, 2009 20:16
|
The way I look at it, A DJ will be matching the relative levels at a party. So I don't think there is any need for a loudness war there. Yet there need to be some limit to the dynamics. We can't have -20dBfs dialogue for cinema levels in a club/party.
With pop and rock etc there is an argument to have it loud for when it is on radio and also when it gets played to the record company executives. Apparently they don't know what the volume control is for....lol
But psy trance has much longer songs.....So I think that the need to instantly impress with loudness isn't as important as with a 3 minute rock song. |
|
|
|
ThiagoNAKA
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
104
Posts :
1047
Posted : Feb 3, 2009 20:44
|
Humm.... I have other view for djs. Many of the still uses the trim, but a fact is that he will say: "the track is killer, but Iīve needed to push it up." Like pop and rock!
And I say this, cause I was kind of obssessed for an OK Power for my tracks. And, for me, -12 dB RMS is too low. -10 dB is OK, and -9/8 dB is what I would ask for a cd nowadays,if possible.
But Iīm sure itīs all about when u started. I imagine a kid today starting to make psy listening to all those -7 dB shit... And worse cause they reach -7 with nasty high freq. Only an annoying click cracking the sound! No body!
LOADING... |
|
|
|
~d2~
Inactive User
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
751
Posted : Feb 3, 2009 20:55
|
I started with vinyl, which is limited to the amount of compression.....I'll have to go through some records and see what there peak to RMS are.
But say you go for -14dB RMS for the mix and peak at -3dBfs (good to keep that cushion and some headroom for mastering). Then in mastering even with out compression you will be able to raise upto -11dB RMS.
This is why I think -14dB RMS for mixing . I work at a set monitor level. Make sure you don't peak over -3dBfs on the master bus, or any tracks for that matter. You got some room for some EQ boost in mastering if you need it. |
|
|
|
ThiagoNAKA
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
104
Posts :
1047
Posted : Feb 3, 2009 21:35
|
I donīt mix using RMS meters. I would be lost and completed annoyed.... lol
I do leave 3 dB for mastering(even for my home master), but honestly I do lower the Input of Master in most of the cases. I use a lot the clip meter(I know its not precise) as I have an idea of the kick/bass balance. For sure it would be better using a meter that "clips" at desired value, but itīs another window...
LOADING... |
|
|
|
PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Feb 3, 2009 21:48
|
imo the best would be to get your mix the louder you can get it (and sounding good )cause it s still you who control everything. if i had to make a live act it won t need any mastering, evrything ll be done in the mixing stage it give you a lot more options(a bit like mastering with stems)
also your track can sound good at -14 rms and then get ruined by mastering to hit -9 rms if the mix has no loudness potential . |
|
|
|
~d2~
Inactive User
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
751
Posted : Feb 3, 2009 21:58
|
|
That's a good point about live playback. Generally I have found live acts to be more dynamic. But if you go too loud you will just end up fighting the PA system, just like bad DJ's who ignore the flashing red LED's on the mixer. |
|
|
|
br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Feb 5, 2009 03:25
|
The "RMS wars" thing is tired. Different genres have different standards. in psy and even prep trance it depends on how many breakdowns and builds there are in the song. For instance, One Way LTD by Spirallianz is -10.13. The Delta's Vinyl Edit of The Thing is -11.74, and We Are Alive by PVD is -11.83. These songs all have significant breaks. If the song is mostly full on the entire time, single digits are entirely possible and will sound fine. The lack of contrast might make the song boring though. Some of the mastering in the power noise genre is in the -5 range.
.::New Boole CD The Vital Few out now::.
http://www.boole.org/audio/index.php#tvf
http://www.boole.org/audio/snippets/Boole-The_Vital_Few-Some_Snippets.mp3 |
|
|
|
~d2~
Inactive User
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
751
Posted : Feb 5, 2009 03:37
|
|
RMS levels alone mean nothing to the perceived loudness of a song brOD. The crest factor is the best indication. |
|
|
|
br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Feb 5, 2009 03:49
|
|
~d2~
Inactive User
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
751
Posted : Feb 5, 2009 03:59
|
Quote:
|
On 2009-02-05 03:37, ~d2~ wrote:
contrast isn't a factor.
|
|
? |
|
|
|
