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Question about very low bassline
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
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Posted : Sep 13, 2010 12:17
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On 2010-09-13 12:03, TimeTraveller wrote:
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On 2010-09-13 11:56, disco hooligans wrote:
F1 is fine, the lowest I am going in tunes is C1 (32.7Hz).
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Heavy :cool:
I was asking myself how deep is your bass,since Im listening to that great dj set from that radio.This is so hardcore and works fantastic in your tunes.
The deepest bass I know in psytrance.Rocks!
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Yeah cheers. That is actually a live set, we even brought a friend to piss over on the mic, since it was a show for Mumbai's radio Schizoid.
Can't wait to play the Swiss Earthdance this weekend! 
 
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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kotton
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Posted : Sep 13, 2010 12:57
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I would have another noobish question if you dont mind. And there far to many bassline threads so I will post it here.
Its about resonants peaks in bass. So I take acurate EQ (the one in izotope alloy lets say) and I put sharp highpass with very high q setting and gain setting. I lower the master volume and search for that crazy ringing sound. Its that the right way to locate it?
So I find area with the most annoying ringing, then I put bell curve on that frequency, again set the high q setting and lower up to -5 dB. I repeat the procedure to locate another such peak and so on.
Is that ok thing to do? How do you do it? |
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daark
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 13, 2010 13:32
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i think in the end your bass will sound weak.
somehow i made that mistake after watching fleming videos and well it killed my bass really bad.
so don't cut lows from your bass at producing stage, u can later export the bass with linear phase lineq lowband from waves and export so it won't put latency in your track and make big mess(i would leave it for mastering eng).
eqing the bass should be in places where there is frequency interferings very gently so try to solve them as much as u can without eq.
adding meat or sub is for mastering and listeners eqing at home.
so don't be bummed if ur mix is "dry and flat" before mastering stage.
a proffesional mastering eng will take care of adding beef to your track.
as for the lowness the c1 sounds nicer at my place i have some standart crappy creative speakers right now and the f1 sounds bad.
anyway adding more freqs higher from the fundametal won't be bad and can add to the meat of the base so leaving a track with only a sub with no meat is not good not for dnb and not for anything at least add a filler base at higher freqs like somewhere in 80 and 160 .
try it 
http://soundcloud.com/magimix-1/chilling-forest-whispers
Wierd shit happens :) |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
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Posted : Sep 13, 2010 16:38
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On 2010-09-13 12:57, kotton wrote:
I would have another noobish question if you dont mind. And there far to many bassline threads so I will post it here.
Its about resonants peaks in bass. So I take acurate EQ (the one in izotope alloy lets say) and I put sharp highpass with very high q setting and gain setting. I lower the master volume and search for that crazy ringing sound. Its that the right way to locate it?
So I find area with the most annoying ringing, then I put bell curve on that frequency, again set the high q setting and lower up to -5 dB. I repeat the procedure to locate another such peak and so on.
Is that ok thing to do? How do you do it?
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similar, I don't use the high pass band, just a normal notch band. I also increase the gain and look for the ringing bass frequencies. The thing to look after when working in this way is to take a look at the real time FFT meters in order to make sure the massive ringing is from the actual synth and not your room. After that, make sure you are notching the dissonant ringing and not the consonant.
Now, the notching out part is important, high Q settings very often induce ringing around the cut off frequency, you gotta make sure you don't induce ringing from adjacent frequencies, for this you gotta train your ears and listen carefully and off course you should take just enough so the dissonance goes away, yet there is enough "meat" in the bassline.
This becomes ever more tricky when you gotta a bassline riff (many different notes in the bassline), you gotta make sure you program and EQ the bassline channel well enough, so that you fix all possible ringing in the other notes, again without loosing weight from your bassline. That's the hardest thing for me.
And another thing, do not count on the mastering engineer to fix anything else besides achieve high RMS levels with the least possible distortion.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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Tribute
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Sep 13, 2010 16:39
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On 2010-09-13 12:17, disco hooligans wrote:
Can't wait to play the Swiss Earthdance this weekend!
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oh cool, you come to switzerland?!
was there last year, it was rly cool  and just an hour away from where i live, so i definetly be there |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Sep 13, 2010 16:44
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On 2010-09-13 16:39, Tribute wrote:
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On 2010-09-13 12:17, disco hooligans wrote:
Can't wait to play the Swiss Earthdance this weekend!
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oh cool, you come to switzerland?!
was there last year, it was rly cool and just an hour away from where i live, so i definetly be there
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yes, flying there on thursday, playing saturday, then germany, come say high, the beer's no me
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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Tribute
IsraTrance Junior Member
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157
Posted : Sep 13, 2010 16:47
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cool, will see if i can catch you up before or after your act |
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kotton
Started Topics :
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105
Posted : Sep 13, 2010 17:51
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[quote]
On 2010-09-13 13:32, daark wrote:
as for the lowness the c1 sounds nicer at my place i have some standart crappy creative speakers right now and the f1 sounds bad.
[quote]
Yes I had second guesses about that particular note, the G1 note sounds much more relaxed, efortless and fluid but Ive recorded quite alot of material in that F minor key on my modular synth and Im kinnda happy with it and I want to use it. And once you unpatch the cables on modular every sound is forever lost. So Ill go with F for this song.
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so don't be bummed if ur mix is "dry and flat" before mastering stage.
a proffesional mastering eng will take care of adding beef to your track.
anyway adding more freqs higher from the fundametal won't be bad and can add to the meat of the base so leaving a track with only a sub with no meat is not good not for dnb and not for anything at least add a filler base at higher freqs like somewhere in 80 and 160 .
try it
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I did and it sounds great. The bass is still as I want it but it has some clarity and body. Also I had to lower the low part of the bass and now it sounds a bit more relaxed but still present. Thanks!
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kotton
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
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Posted : Sep 13, 2010 18:10
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On 2010-09-13 16:38, disco hooligans wrote:
similar, I don't use the high pass band, just a normal notch band. I also increase the gain and look for the ringing bass frequencies. The thing to look after when working in this way is to take a look at the real time FFT meters in order to make sure the massive ringing is from the actual synth and not your room. After that, make sure you are notching the dissonant ringing and not the consonant.
Now, the notching out part is important, high Q settings very often induce ringing around the cut off frequency, you gotta make sure you don't induce ringing from adjacent frequencies, for this you gotta train your ears and listen carefully and off course you should take just enough so the dissonance goes away, yet there is enough "meat" in the bassline.
This becomes ever more tricky when you gotta a bassline riff (many different notes in the bassline), you gotta make sure you program and EQ the bassline channel well enough, so that you fix all possible ringing in the other notes, again without loosing weight from your bassline. That's the hardest thing for me.
And another thing, do not count on the mastering engineer to fix anything else besides achieve high RMS levels with the least possible distortion.
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Great.
So canceling those frequencies is not that easy. Ill try to do it with your advices in mind.
So what about this multiple pitches of your bass. That means also different ringing frequencies. So I just play one note at the time and fix one after another?
But I cant do that on a same EQ for all different notes so I have to bounce and separate each note. And each one with its own EQ?
Is that right? Sounds quite a complicated thing to do and with my knowledge and experience I will most probably destroy the bass sound via this process. So how important to cut those frequencies.
Anyone who lives without cutting those resonant peaks? Is this essential for a decent mortal's bassline?
Many thanks!! |
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Sep 13, 2010 19:23
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^
In Ableton (maybe in other major DAWs too?) you can automate your EQ parameters, just like you would automate a clip’s volume or an effect’s dry/wet ratio. You select your EQ device, choose the parameter to change (your notch frequency in this case) and make it change at the same time bass notes change. But since you’ll have to first “play” with EQ on each note separately to find these ringing frequencies anyway, might as well do the bouncing thing and process each note separately. I just wanted to let you know that automation is an option. If you get funky and use portamento, for example, you’d want your notch to slide smoothly with your note – automation is the way to go then.
About getting away without EQ “surgery”: some Suomi tracks sound like that. People are divided on that one: some say it sounds crude and unprofessional, others say this is exactly the point – this music has a spontaneous, garage band feel. I tend to agree with the second group more often, since Suomi tracks usually more than make up in the composition/arrangement department what they lack in “Astrix quality”. But that’s only my personal opinion. If you produce prog or full on, you probably won’t be able to get away with such “unprofessional” attitude.
On the original topic: there was a formula floating somewhere on this forum, which calculates the scale you are “supposed” to use based on the tempo of your track. The formula itself is a total crock of fermented frog brains, but the principle behind it is actually valid. Consider your situation. Your track is at 137 BPM and your sub-bass is at 21.83 Hz. Now, let’s do a couple of simple calculations. Your kick comes at 137 BPM, which means your bass notes show up at 137*4=548 per minute. This is 548/60=9.13 Hz, which is about half of your sub-bass frequency. Even if your synth is ideal and follows your ADSR envelope to a microsecond and you have no attack or release time at all and your notes take the full length of 1/16 – your sub-bass will get to complete only 2 cycles per note. In other words, there is no way your 1/16s can be any more than a double-punch into your listeners’ face – certainly not a sound. This is the ideal scenario. In reality, your synth (even a VSTi) does not have an instant response. Neither do your speakers. The note simply does not have enough time to “develop”. Much of your effort will not even translate into a pressure punch – it will end up as useless heat in speakers’ circuitry. Meanwhile, if that sub-bass were something occasional (once in a bar, let's say) or your track were much slower, you would not have this problem. So, the principle of the wacko formula was actually correct: the faster you play, the higher notes you should use.
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daark
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 14, 2010 12:08
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about the eqing.
why to have ringing freqs u don't want in the bass at first place?
use the synth and choose which freqs u want, to be in the bass at first place.
u can use simple additive synthesis.
make a sine then add another than another on a different frequency and so on...
if u used saw there is no disonant freq there
and if u choose square than there are only disonant freqs present and is legitimate to use of course.
i think it is very important for mariage of the K&B to not use eq on them. except HP
use sidechain or something kick and bass should not meet and be fit.
so surgery on em is useless.
makes sense no?
http://soundcloud.com/magimix-1/chilling-forest-whispers
Wierd shit happens :) |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
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Posted : Sep 14, 2010 12:17
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The sawtooth waveform, contains both even and odd interger harmonics, the square contains only the odd iinterger harmonics. That does not have to do with dissonance though. Different synth oscillators, filters, envelope generators, amp will yield some characteristics.
Some synths sound more "dissonant" than others, so require more EQing.
Don't go crazy on EQing on riff basslines, you just have to compromise a bit, but you can get away with clear sounding notes and some more rough/raw sounding ones, that make the whole bassline sound even more interesting.
Peace out.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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daark
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Sep 14, 2010 14:36
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On 2010-09-14 12:17, disco hooligans wrote:
The sawtooth waveform, contains both even and odd interger harmonics, the square contains only the odd iinterger harmonics.
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sorry, my mistake.
ur are right.
anyway my point was that instead of EQing all of the freqs out u can just not add them in first place.but its up to you.
as for the eq automation it is much more easy using keyFollow
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| Some synths sound more "dissonant" than others, so require more EQing. |
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I didn't get that... When u play a sine it is not a sine but a dissonant sine?
http://soundcloud.com/magimix-1/chilling-forest-whispers
Wierd shit happens :) |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
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Posted : Sep 14, 2010 15:06
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There really isn't too much to notch out if you have programmed your synth patch well and chosen a good bassline synth. There is no need to get so worked up about many notches for every different notes, portamento and what have you.
And yes, it is best to get the sound right at source, in order to avoid EQing things much later, but never the less, there is always the need to EQ my basslines in order to get the sound I want. I would't be able to get it other wise, and I do feel I have quite a bit of experience programming synths.
Erm, you lost me on the sine waves, though daark, I thought we woz talking about saws and squares?
When I mean dissonant, I mean that an envelope behaves a certain way (or is programmed in a way) that makes the filter pop and give some dissonant ring in the lows, or the filter rings at certain frequencies, or your EQ plug ins induce ringing, a saw tooth oscillator with some weird curve on the ramp, loads of factors come into play, especially with analogue synths (I used to own a Doepfer modular, Analog Systems modular, Roland sh-101, a midi retro fitted Juno 60, Waldorf Pulse, DSI Evolver, A6).
So all in all
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Sep 14, 2010 15:55
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On 2010-09-14 14:36, daark wrote:
anyway my point was that instead of EQing all of the freqs out u can just not add them in first place.but its up to you.
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I was wondering about this for awhile too (since Ableton’s Operator lets you adjust individual harmonics of its oscillators), until I realized that you don’t really get the frequencies you program. Or, rather, you get more than just those frequencies. Any volume or pitch change in time will produce “stray” frequencies you have not counted on. Any filter with a sharp cut-off curve will produce ringing artifacts (Colin once said they’re audible when the slope is > 24 dB/octave). A lot of it is a technical problem of particular synths or effects, just like DH said. But a lot of it is simply a mathematical inevitability.
Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle became famous because of people’s fascination with quantum physics. But it is just one case of a more general principle that applies to any wave – including sound. It is simply impossible to precisely control (or perceive) both the frequency and the timing of a note. As soon as you have some timing information (note on/off, ADSR envelope, filter envelope etc), your frequency information becomes “smudged” – even in theory. You get stray harmonics or noises in often unpredictable places – even if you have ideal equipment. That’s why transients are perceived as claps, knocks and clicks: the more obvious their timing, the more they sound like noise.
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as for the eq automation it is much more easy using keyFollow
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Can you do key-follow outside the synth? I didn’t know other plugins take in MIDI info. At least, I think Ableton’s native EQ8 doesn’t. Though, automation is a way around this problem…
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