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Quad,Dual,Daul Core proccesors and Cpu Overload in your sequenser !!!
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Jun 4, 2008 13:34
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On 2008-06-04 12:24, -aeon- wrote:
but just think about it - imagine you are playing the final movement of a concerto in prestissimo (somewhere around 200bpm, or 0.3 seconds per beat). let's assume you're not playing crotchets, but hemidemisemiquavers... each of which would take up something like 18ms. even at full breakneck speed, a pianist would notice. it would be like missing out an entire note...
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By that reasoning the pianist would miss notes all the time considering that he would have to play faster than the nerve response time.
The fact is that we do have a built in delay compensation so even if it takes a few ms for our impulses to travel trough the nerves and for the sound to reach our ears it's not an issue.
Maybe 20 ms latency would be noticeable for some skilled pianist playing hemidemisemiquavers at 200 bmp but I sincerely doubt that most keyboard players can tell 10 ms from 20 ms in a blind test.
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Alex Roudos
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
411
Posted : Jun 4, 2008 16:09
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I think the problem isn't that much if someone could hear the latency difference in a 10ms vs 20ms blind test.
The problem, at least as i have experienced it, is when playing the keys. It feels to me like my default latency hearing setting is totally synchronized with my fingers when pressing the keys, expecting to hear the sound at this exact moment. So i lower the latency until i get the maximum synchronization between my fingers and sound coming into my ears without getting any kind of sound artifacts.
And still, when i play something on my digital piano it feels totally different(no latency at all) and when i get back to the midi keyboard, even this 5ms latency is there for some time(not much) until i re-synchronize to it.
A friend told me once that the biggest mistake we make is that we believe we live, when in reality we are sleeping in the waiting room of life. |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Jun 4, 2008 16:18
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The purpose of a blind test would of course be if you can feel the latency.
I'm not sure what you mean with hearing the latency difference...if we are talking about phase or spatial cues by comparing two signals triggered with a slight offset one can test the audible difference, but what to you compare the triggering of a single signal with?
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« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
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http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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-aeon-
Aeon
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
546
Posted : Jun 4, 2008 19:04
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Quote:
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On 2008-06-04 13:34, Spindrift wrote:
By that reasoning the pianist would miss notes all the time considering that he would have to play faster than the nerve response time. |
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 lol!
well, i did say it could all be wrong  i dunno, i think about the fastest things i have ever played - probably Paganini or something. then i think about the timing of a note being out by even a quarter of the note length, and it's absolutely noticeable. so even if you were playing hemisemiquavers at presto tempo, which isn't that uncommon in classical music, i still get the sense it would be noticeable. not 'oh no! my fingers are 5ms out of time!' but more knowing that the note is late.
i think Alex is on to something:
Quote:
| The problem, at least as i have experienced it, is when playing the keys. It feels to me like my default latency hearing setting is totally synchronized with my fingers when pressing the keys, expecting to hear the sound at this exact moment. So i lower the latency until i get the maximum synchronization between my fingers and sound coming into my ears without getting any kind of sound artifacts.
And still, when i play something on my digital piano it feels totally different(no latency at all) and when i get back to the midi keyboard, even this 5ms latency is there for some time(not much) until i re-synchronize to it. |
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+1. i absolutely agree - this is my experience also. a lot of people peg 'acceptable latency' to around 7ms, or even 10ms - which presumes that latency on that scale is noticeable.
blind test results coming later tonight! |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Jun 5, 2008 11:17
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Do you guys realize that 1 ms is 1 MILLISECOND?
That means you have 1000 Milliseconds in ONE Second!!
That means you have 1000 Milliseconds in ONE Second!!
That means you have 1000 Milliseconds in ONE Second!!
That means you have 1000 Milliseconds in ONE Second!!
To pass the one meter from the speaker to your ears the sound already needs 3ms!!
Do your really realize in what dimensions you are arguing here?
Playing a piano is surly very different to a plastic keyboard. But that has nothing to do with latency.
I would even assume that a real piano, with all its hammer mechanics has a latency around 10 to 20ms.
The calculation earlier is of course wrong. 20ms fit 50 times in a second. so a keyboarder would have to play 50 notes a SECOND.
Whatever you guys feel, you should really check if there are no other latencies involved. Many plugins like UAD, but also some native Plugins, involve additional latency and many synths involve additional latency (no matter where in the project they are used). Windows, if setup wrong, involves midilatency, many midiinterfaces involve latency.
Run: http://miditest.earthvegaconnection.com/
miditest to learn how much midilatency you have.
Furthermore the response time of our auditory system is around 10ms to 20ms itself. So, biologicaly we are not able to perceive a latency time bellow that range. Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Mike A
Subra
Started Topics :
185
Posts :
3954
Posted : Jun 5, 2008 14:56
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scm, please say it again. i'm not sure everyone got it.
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acidkills
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
431
Posted : Jun 5, 2008 15:33
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-aeon-
Aeon
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
546
Posted : Jun 6, 2008 08:51
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Quote:
| Furthermore the response time of our auditory system is around 10ms to 20ms itself. So, biologicaly we are not able to perceive a latency time bellow that range. |
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you're telling me that there is no perceivable difference between playing a digital keyboard with zero latency and playing over midi with 20ms latency?
really?
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-aeon-
Aeon
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
546
Posted : Jun 6, 2008 10:24
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btw, i can only apologise (again!) for the physiologically-impossible-calculation |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Jun 6, 2008 14:15
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Quote:
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On 2008-06-06 08:51, -aeon- wrote:
Quote:
| Furthermore the response time of our auditory system is around 10ms to 20ms itself. So, biologicaly we are not able to perceive a latency time bellow that range. |
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you're telling me that there is no perceivable difference between playing a digital keyboard with zero latency and playing over midi with 20ms latency?
really?
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I'd say zero or 15ms is not perceivable. zero or 20.. maybe
Try to meassure 5mm with a ruler which has the smallest unit 20mm...
Or try to meassure 10mm with a ruler which has smallest unit 10mm. from 6-15mm for the ruler it is all 10mm.
I learned about the 10-20ms latency of the auditory system when we went through auditory and nervesystem of the body when I was in University. But its some while ago. Don't quote me on that.
Fact is, that the body is a machine just like the computer and we have latencies involved. Our nervesystem is based on chemical reactions which do not happen immediately (nothing does). There is indeed a latency from the moment we think we want to press a key, until our hand really moves... then there is a latency when the sound reaches our ear (and of course the 3ms per meter it has to pass till our ear) until it went through the biomecanical system of our ear and once its on the receptors there, there is another latency till it reaches our brain.
We think it happens directly, but in reality it doesn't.
But anyway. Thats all just theory, I admit that. What really counts is, if you can actually feel or hear. If you succeed in a blind test with a rate of over 66% I'd say theory is prooven wrong.
My personal experience is, that 15ms is the border, bellow that its all the same. some hear the difference between 15 and 20, but only if they are actually focusing on that.
I personaly don't care about 20ms. Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Jun 6, 2008 19:36
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