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Psytrance music creation!! HELP! :(
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Dimitri
Inactive User
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229
Posted : Oct 9, 2004 01:13
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Kaz i wonder how you gain your musical taste ? |
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Qualium
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Posted : Oct 10, 2004 14:36
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Well, yeah, Kaz, you *do* have a point - doing your own thing is a vital part of making music. However, to someone just starting out, it's advice that probably won't get you very far on its own.
Someone somewhere once said something about music (or was it art in general) that it doesn't have rules, it just has *principles* - that is, certain patterns and theories that have worked before, but don't *have* to be followed. The fact is that if you're trying to produce music in a particular style like psytrance, you need to acnowledge to yourself that your music is going to have to have a fair bit in common with certain other music of that style. After all, it'll have to be possible to fit it into a DJ set. So, as Serra suggested, analyzing other people's tracks tends to be a very good idea.
This does not mean that you give up on your quest for originality - far from it. I feel that you actually need to believe that there is territory yet to be explored in that style - what's the point of making the music if you don't think there's anywhere new to go? The idea is that you learn the principles you appreciate behind the music you like to understand what it is they do, how they work and why, and then take those principles, explore them further, and/or learn how to stretch or break them *well*.
Different people have certain things in common - for the most part, we all have heads, arms, legs, voices and personalities, and yet each of us is unquestionably different. And so too it is with music.
 Find my music here - www.soundclick.com/bands/0/qualiummusic.htm |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
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90
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2268
Posted : Oct 10, 2004 16:44
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How do you get your own musical taste? I personally think that everyone has a musical taste. You just like certain things in music. Do them. Psytrance music doesn't have to be a part of a DJ set. It doesn't have to sound like other people. Or are you saying that Son Kite, Texas Faggot and Parasense have anything in common other than the usage of a bassdrum?
There are so many ways to make good music. Just make the music that YOU want to hear. That's working with your own taste and not someone elses. And if you get good at it, you'll feel that you make the best music in the world, since no one knows what's better music than you 
http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Oct 10, 2004 17:17
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kaz: I think your advise is completely useless for a beginner and I suspect you are just trying to be a smartass.
If you are just beginning, listen to Qualium's advise. Learn the basic rules from other artists and after that, break the rules.
And btw, yes there is much more in common between Texas Faggot, Son Kite and Parasense: Kickdrum, basslines, hihats, snares, 4/4 rythm, tempo between 120 - 160 BPM, dancable groove etc. I would say there is more in common than there are differences.
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
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2849
Posted : Oct 10, 2004 17:20
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UnderTow stop talking bullshit!!!
Kaz u r absolutly right, this is the right way to go.
BTW Undertow pstrance always consists of 4/4 rythm, tempo 120-160 BPM and a dancable groove, so what do u want to say with that?
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
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1448
Posted : Oct 10, 2004 17:32
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On 2004-10-10 17:20, EYB wrote:
UnderTow stop talking bullshit!!!
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So you are saying that someone that starts producing music should straight away try and make something completely original and different? How are they going to achieve that if they can't even make a simple standard track?
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Kaz u r absolutly right, this is the right way to go.
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Non-sense. First you learn the basics and then you move on from there. If you don't know the basic rules, anything original you make that is any good will just be sheer luck.
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BTW Undertow pstrance always consists of 4/4 rythm, tempo 120-160 BPM and a dancable groove, so what do u want to say with that?
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Just as I said: There are more similarities than differences. |
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EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
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2849
Posted : Oct 10, 2004 17:41
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So you are saying that someone that starts producing music should straight away try and make something completely original and different? How are they going to achieve that if they can't even make a simple standard track?
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U got it!
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Non-sense. First you learn the basics and then you move on from there. If you don't know the basic rules, anything original you make that is any good will just be sheer luck.
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Kaz didn't say do not learn basics, he said not to compare to other tracks while producing ur stuff.
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Just as I said: There are more similarities than differences.
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What a shit, this is the basic trance principies, but there are endless more differences between only two tracks then this 3 similarities. Maybe go and listen to texas fagott and then to a parasense track to hear urself.
And kaz is absolutly right comparing ur stuff to stuff from other artists is shit and will slow down ur own prducing process.
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Oct 10, 2004 17:54
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On 2004-10-10 17:41, EYB wrote:
U got it!
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And what happens when after 6 months that person is stuck? What advise do you give?
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Kaz didn't say do not learn basics, he said not to compare to other tracks while producing ur stuff.
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And how do you learn the basics? Don't forget the context of this thread: Someone is stuck after six months and is asking advise on how to get unstuck.
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What a shit, this is the basic trance principies, but there are endless more differences between only two tracks then this 3 similarities. Maybe go and listen to texas fagott and then to a parasense track to hear urself.
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No thanks. I don't like either of these artists ...
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And kaz is absolutly right comparing ur stuff to stuff from other artists is shit and will slow down ur own prducing process.
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The guy is stuck. He can't go any slower! Sheesh ... |
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serra
Started Topics :
5
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29
Posted : Oct 10, 2004 18:11
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On 2004-10-08 09:40, kaz wrote:
OK, I don't want to be a spoilsport here, but listening to other people's music and then trying to sound like them will make you another Alien Project or Melicia at best, never in the same league as guys like Deedrah, Son Kite and the such. Reason has good results sometimes, so does Fruity Loops, Cubase, Logic, Orion or whatever. The bottom line is that whatever sounds/works good to you is the best (even though I find Logic to be much more powerful and flexible than the others in this list, some people find it hard to learn - while Reason and Fruity Loops are considered the easiest to work with).
Ignore all the tips here. Ignore all the music you ever heard. Just do something you think sounds great and that you always wanted to hear in music but never did. With proper frequency and dynamic effects you can make ANYTHING work in your music. Don't be limited by what some unimaginative DJ thinks good music should be like - if you want to be an artist YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER THAN ANY DJ WHAT MAKING PSYTRANCE IS ALL ABOUT. If you don't think you have that in you, go be a drummer or something 
ohh yeah - and Anak made a very good point. Eventually you learn how to flow with the music in such a way that imagining it and writing it are actually the same process - but that requires that at least the most basic technical bits of music creation will come naturally to you (experience helps this).
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I was heading for the structures |
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Qualium
Started Topics :
1
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16
Posted : Oct 10, 2004 18:39
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Kaz,
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| You just like certain things in music. Do them. Psytrance music doesn't have to be a part of a DJ set. |
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Psy in general doesn't have to be part of a DJ set, but I'd say that many would argue that psytrance, by definition, is purpose built for just that. Of course you can listen to the music anywhere you want, but unless it is possible to beatmix it into a set, then you've got the 'psy', but not the 'trance'. Not that that's a problem, by any means.
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| It doesn't have to sound like other people. Or are you saying that Son Kite, Texas Faggot and Parasense have anything in common other than the usage of a bassdrum? |
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Well, yeah, even they do tend have things some in common with others apart from the bass drum - particular bpm rates, certain meters (ie 4/4, 12/8 etc), some sound similarities, rhythms of some motifs, some loop/sequence/phrase lengths, vague overall structures of tracks, and plenty of other elements if you really look for them. Obviously these artists tend to venture into hghly experimental territory, and they has much less in common with the bulk of psytrance, and all power to them and anyone else who wishes to do likewise. But there is plenty of common ground, and there's nothing inherently worng with that.
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| There are so many ways to make good music. Just make the music that YOU want to hear. That's working with your own taste and not someone elses. And if you get good at it, you'll feel that you make the best music in the world, since no one knows what's better music than you |
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I couldn't agree with you more - except perhaps with the minor qualification that 'no one knows what's better music *to you* than you'. And I'm sure you'd agree with me on that one, Kaz.
Please understand that I am by no means dissmissing you thoughts. Music that's overly formulaic and unoriginal tends to sound like it was not only done on a computer, but by a computer too. But on the other hand, I find that when I am self-consciously trying to be original (that is, going out of my way to reject any ideas similar to what anyone else has done), I can easily end up making music that sounds like a complete wank (to me at least, that is). Paradoxically, it is being very unoriginal. - as in the 'I'm an individual too' type of thinking - there's nothing new about that.
The way I see it, music is a form of communication - not of words and concepts, but of emotions and aesthetics. When you make music, you are doing it in a form of language that is understandable to someone. It might be just yourself, like writing a journal. It might be for a few select people that you know personally, who might appreciate what you're trying to express because they know you. Or it might be a somewhat larger number of people who understand and love a form of music that has reached a point where it has actually been labelled as a particular genre (vague and unsatisfing as the name might be) Then you're using what could be called that genre's 'musical jargon', accessible only to the people in that scene. Or, hell, it might even be music that's likely to have a much broader appeal.
I don't think there is anything inherently worse about creating music in the language of the many than there is for doing it for just yourself, but I feel that whoever you create a track for, you must include youself in that group. If you make music just to impress others but don't actually like ityourself, then you'll lose respect for those who do, and that's poison for the soul. But if you really do love your own music, you will feel a genuine living connection with anyone else who does too - and that's priceless. Of course, if you make music that you love, but no-one else does, at least you're happy, and that's equally priceless.
Basically, my theory is that you should make the music you wish someone else would make. This might be a radically new form never heard before, or it might be a slight, but significant variation on an old theme (or anywhere in between). Either way, it's all good, as long as you love it.
Find my music here - www.soundclick.com/bands/0/qualiummusic.htm |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
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90
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Posted : Oct 10, 2004 19:01
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Actually, Texas Faggot did stuff both slower and faster than the 120-160bpms. There are psytrance tracks without snares, others without hihats, a few without basslines. By people outside the psytrance scene (with basic knowledge of psytrance), Shpongle is usually considered psytrance - unless you happen to live in Israel where everyone knows psytrance.
I've heard psytrance at bpms ranging from 78 to 182, and there's no reason why there shouldn't be anything more flexible than this. You want to 'learn' from music, at least learn from the music that you find the coolest, not from what everyone else does (GMS, Son Kite, or GOW). Listen to electronic music from different genres, like techno, house, electro, IDM, jungle. There are so many ways to make good music. Limiting yourself will make the studying process much longer and harder.
The fastest (not best) way to learn though is to sit with someone in a studio and see an artist in action. Three hours seeing a heavy duty artist work on a track will teach you more than 3 months of reading texts here.
And Undertow: I'm a smartass. You're right, I'm wrong. Could you stop with the attitude now, or would you like to do a literary pissing contest with me? (a fair warning: I'll probably win at that) http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Oct 10, 2004 19:31
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On 2004-10-10 19:01, kaz wrote:
The fastest (not best) way to learn though is to sit with someone in a studio and see an artist in action. Three hours seeing a heavy duty artist work on a track will teach you more than 3 months of reading texts here.
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This is true but not everybody has access to other producers. And anyway, what is the difference between learning from someone else directly with them in the studio or by learning from them indirectly through their music? You seem to be contradiciting yourself here.
I never said COPY from other artists. I said LEARN from other artists.
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And Undertow: I'm a smartass. You're right, I'm wrong. Could you stop with the attitude now, or would you like to do a literary pissing contest with me? (a fair warning: I'll probably win at that)
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This says enough about your arrogance ... I was right on the money. |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
90
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2268
Posted : Oct 10, 2004 19:42
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There's a huge difference between learning from music and learning from the way of work of the artist. In the first, you listen to formulas, in the second you see how he comes up these things in the first place. And undertow: "haposel bemumo posel", very clever hebrew saying. I just try and write on the same wavelength as the people I'm writing to.
http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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Qualium
Started Topics :
1
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16
Posted : Oct 10, 2004 19:48
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Hey maybe we should try cooling it a little - slinging shit at one another won't help anyone or anything. Everyone's right from their point of view, and everyone's point of view is valid. A little more patience might shed light on the truth that lies in all the words offered here.
Toke, anyone?
Find my music here - www.soundclick.com/bands/0/qualiummusic.htm |
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WAVELOGIX
Wavelogix
Started Topics :
136
Posts :
1214
Posted : Oct 12, 2004 01:24
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keep ur fuckin ego;s aside and start to help guys ...
with this attitude no one is getting no where !
respect ... boom ! |
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