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psytrance in surround 5.1
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psytendo
Started Topics :
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73
Posted : Jun 2, 2008 19:29
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Quote:
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On 2008-06-02 16:32, -aeon- wrote:
- i agree with whomever suggested quadraphonic. in most party setups, the difference between 'true' 5.1 surround and quad surround would be negligible. i don't buy the argument that quadraphonic is so much worse than 5.1... a dedicated LFE is pointless,
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I can see that dropping the center channel is a good choice, but the LFE can take a lot the bass away from the main channels and therefore alow you to use them with a higher resolution.
Also, you will avoid phase problems in the low end since it all comes from one point (which shouldnt be locatable in the first place).
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psytendo
Started Topics :
1
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73
Posted : Jun 2, 2008 19:30
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-doublepost- |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Jun 2, 2008 19:57
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Upavas,
I don't think you understand what I mean with the delayed kicks. I'm not talking about stuff mixed for > 2.0 setups. I am talking about festivals where they set-up the speakers on all corners of the dance floor (or in circles or whatever). This issue won't show up in a Cinema as the distance from the speakers isn't really big enough to cause real problems.
From your response it seems you are only using the surround speakers for FX. You are not sending the kick and the bass (and all the rest) to these speakers. In other words, you are using a film/video set-up. Right? That works and isn't an issue.
I was talking about being immersed in the sound from all sides by having full bandwidth on all (4) speakers. That can give a great effect if you are right in the sweet spot. It also works for smaller setups (but is hard to set up without all sorts of phase issues. On bigger rigs, it becomes a mess and you get the delayed kicks syndrome. It sounds like a DJ that can't quite mix... all night or even all week long. :/
UnderTow
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
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3315
Posted : Jun 2, 2008 21:20
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I am using the surround speakers for more than fx, many times I even use them for percussion, but I never rout kick and bass into the rear, it is not a good effect. At the same time, I have had bad experiences with Quadraphonic setups. They just don't sound the same, yes, they are much more easy to implement in the clubs, but the sound quality is just not the same in my experience. Psytendo also wrote the precise reason why I do not want to miss my LFE. The center channel btw. also has its good uses. Especially if you want to get a feeling that a sound is moving from the rear to the front, do that without your c and you will see what I mean. The idea for me behind this is to give the listener an experience that really takes him into the music, he is not a bystander anymore, he is in the middle and everything is all around him.
Undertow, if you have too much distance from each speaker it usually helps to add speakers in a chein to supplement the other speakers, meaning put something inbetween front and rear, that is precisely what cinema's do and it works everytime.
Geez, I am so happy to see that finally there is some life in this thread. Please keep it coming !!!
 Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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mk47
Inactive User
Started Topics :
118
Posts :
4444
Posted : Jun 2, 2008 21:23
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hey upavas could you or krazycid upload a small sample of some of your 5.1 psytrance ? 
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Jun 2, 2008 22:01
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Upavas, so indeed you are using a film/video 5.1 setup. That's cool.
I'd like to try some 5.1 mixing of psy but the studio I'm in for the next few days has everything wired up wrong. When I send something to the LFE channel, it comes out the Rs speaker. When I hit the ALT speaker button (I wanted to check the mix I was working on the Auratones), the signal just goes to the Ls/Rs speakers. Errr...
UnderTow |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Jun 3, 2008 00:31
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Wish I was there Undertow, I could fix that for you in a minute.
Go to your bass management box and keep changing the speaker cables until each comes out right. That should fix your problem within minutes.You have to make sure that the input cables into the bass mangement box should be correct first and then check your outputs from there.
To check which speaker where, make 6 mono channels and fill them with pink noise. Create a 5.1 output with subchannels routing to each speaker from a different track. Assign your channel outputs via one of the sub outputs for each track a different speaker. Once you have the tracks connected to each speaker make sure via the cables in your bass management box that each speaker receives it's signal. To make sure run each track in solo mode.
Once you have everything setup, shoot your speakers with the same pink noise you have in each track and a db meter. Radio shack sells them for 60 bucks (cheap). While you do that make sure your bass management box is disabled! The noise should be generated with -20db from nominal output (0) !
After shooting your speakers enable your bass management box again!
Now do the same thing for a 5.1 party and you will be surprised by the difference. The setup I told you here should be measured c-weighted, not a !
LCR 80db, sub 85 db and surrounds 77db.
btw. where are you on this planet. I think it might be very nice indeed to mix something together...
And while you do that make sure you use Smpte itu if at all possible...
And a warning ahead. Mixing 5.1 has proven to be extremely addicting, at least to me. It might be somewhat hard to go back to stereo once you have the knack of it !!!
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Jun 3, 2008 09:24
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mk47 ,
I am currently in the process of putting a short animation onto youtube, it has some examples of 5.1 psy on it. I just don't know how to get the moviefile going. Might take me a bit of time but I will come back to you on that one...
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jun 3, 2008 20:45
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Upavas,
It is worse than that. The wiring out of the Pro-Control is wrong (as hitting the ALT button should send the signal to the Auratones, not to any thing that is connected to the main monitors). The cables going into the monitor management box are not labelled and I really shouldn't touch anything in this studio. (It's the Dutch army's studio. Lol).
Anyway, I only have a few more hours in this studio this week and I'll be in another studio for the rest of the week. Most studios I work in don't have a surround set-up. Just plain stereo for TV work. And in the ones that do, I rarely have any time to do any experimentation. It's all rush rush rush for the dead-lines...
UnderTow
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Jun 3, 2008 21:12
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Jun 3, 2008 21:16
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Yeah. But like I said, I'm not going to touch anything in that studio.
UnderTow |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Jun 3, 2008 21:35
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PsyGalaXy
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
68
Posts :
437
Posted : Jun 4, 2008 14:22
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Hi mates , good topic here. Personally I think 5.1 psy can be a more intense and involving experience.
Let's get a bit deeper in that fact ; I agree with who tells to have a standard movie setup.
Let's say that's like it's easier to do a 5.1 mix (mixer go faster)it's harder to build a control room that ensure appropriate levels of mixing and panning control.
There's a lot of standards and complains whitch has been built over the years.
One of that is th ITU BS775 (http://happy.emu.id.au/lab/tut/dttb/dtbtut3c.htm)
Another which accoplain that is the Lucasfilm's THX (
which need an appropriate crtl room dimensions and really helps to keep levels and pan a quite similar in different places you play the movie o music .Like bob katz K-** for the audio.
Don't mess around dolby certification , cause it needs a very large amount of resources and an hardware cinema processor (in other words you do when you have a great structure and want starting to do pro tv/cinema mixes) and costs a lot.
Btw , theory is boring , let's get down to business.
I suggest to keep all parts of the song which should be in the centre with 100% full divergence , doing that we have ie kick bass emitted like a Phantom Image from the 2 Front (front left+front right) Channels. It's quite good not to keep them on the Front centre channel (0%divergence)only. When you play it on large cinemas and large pa's the image will be focused enoungh and you freed the front channel for other effects , that also helps a 2.0 downmix (needed in all the way)
I have not much time right now , i will go on whit my boring tecnical issues asap.
Cheers and dolby^_^
http://mystic-sound.com/releases/ioon-cosmic-downtempo-9314-oclock/
FREE DOWNLOAD EKTO http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/ioon-the-ioonfinite-loop
https://spiritedrecords.bandcamp.com/album/times-of-peace-2
https://soundcloud.com/opalmoonproj |
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psytendo
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
73
Posted : Jun 4, 2008 14:47
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Quote:
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On 2008-06-02 21:20, Upavas wrote:
Undertow, if you have too much distance from each speaker it usually helps to add speakers in a chein to supplement the other speakers.
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About this, does any of you guys know a formula to split off a phantom channel from a stereo image at an arbitrary point?
I mean, you can use M/S to split off the center but what if you want to divide the stereo field into more speakers?
I was thinking about this because i've seen surround 'arrays' where there are about 12 speakers around you. It seemed the sound was much more controlled that way.
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krazycid
Started Topics :
4
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57
Posted : Jun 5, 2008 06:10
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Some interesting points have come up here
Quadraphonic vs 5.1... I reckon quality of sound depends on resolution and sample rates to begin with and then the quality of the various links in the signal path the quality of the mixers crossovers, amps and finally the speakers that the sound is being played back on... sure one gets a little more control over localization of sounds with 5.1 as compared to quad but sound quality? One can get really creative with quad as well and have heard some awesome work done in quad.
Aeon.. some good pointers there... i do find myself going a bit overboard with the round the room sweeps and ping pongs... but why do you say that a dedicated LFE is pointless?
Undertow.. I fully get what ur saying about delayed kicks on very large setups... can be quite annoying... have experienced the same on a stereo setup at a festival with miscalculated delays between speaker stacks
Mk 47 still polishing my work, once its ready... how do you want it? AC3 good for you or would you rather multiple mono ? do you have any other ideas in terms of formats to upload surround material?
Upavas, cheers for keeping this thread alive and kicking , when you say you send some perc to the surround speakers but never kick bass... Iv also noticed it does like you said cause alot of cancellation but , say for a build up where you use an automated filter cuttoff on the kick and bass would you possibly start behind fully filtered and slowly bring it around to the front as it opens up, sort of prompting the dance floor to move in on the moshpit? u getting my visualization of this automated panning idea?
Psygalaxy ur technical issues arent boring at all man... waiting to hear more from you
trancedance-harddance-crazydance-monkeydance-peacedance-active meditation-takesyoutoanotherleveldance |
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