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.::Psy Trance Artists with Musical Education::.
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Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
Started Topics :
20
Posts :
356
Posted : Apr 22, 2005 06:38
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I went to college for music and probably the best comment any of my teachers ever made about music theory was something along the lines of "Music theory isn't really all that useful for making good music. Rather its value is in figuring out why (or why not) a piece of music already written works well." I've had several years of formal training and while it is useful on occassion I can honestly say that 99% of the time I don't even consider it when I'm writing music. I do think it is a useful thing for all muscians to know and if you have the talent for the making music it will only help more, but it is by no means nessecary. The bulk of music theory is, after all, really common sense rules on what is and isn't pleasing to the ear (i.e. teacher, "You shouldn't play this notes together in this situation." student, "Yeah, I can tell, it sounds like crap")
  New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/
PAR-2 Productions http://www.par-2.com |
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Neville Bone
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
390
Posted : Apr 22, 2005 13:09
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Music theory is not necessary but one thing which we all for sure agree is that it helps offcourse to make trance.
Especially when it comes to lines and melodies.
I can sepnd all day working on a melody moving,adding notes reducing velocities etc....
And at the end of the day I manage to get right just by following my ears but what I'm saying here is that if had theory too it would probably take me less time cause I would know that where certain notes have to go because I studied the theory.
Producing by the ear:
Somtime ago a trance producer friend of mine who knows music theory came to visit me to listen to some of my work and he was gonna show me few theoritical things such as how to write an arpeggiop etc...and he was amazed with the fact that certain things I had alraedy done them with out knowing any theory but it took me for example 2 or 3 days when my friend who knows theory would have done that in 2 or 3 minutes!!!!
IT HELPS. |
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Ronaron303
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
157
Posted : Apr 22, 2005 20:04
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Music education.
how you can say that is not help ,when its realy help .
So, what all the fuzz about knowing the music theory ,is ofcoarse moving to contrpoint and then fugga ,that why its all has been made for .
iN old time there are composers said "if you know good fugga ,you are a master of your buesness"
So, learn theory for contrpoint wich is the first step of whole polyphony.
But what?you shouldnt use your imagination then?
For shure you will be but it will give you a more metodical process to see the thing ,how they supose to be for your on your chose and you will be more trained person by music for music ,lets go guys. |
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floatyhippyflower
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
538
Posted : Apr 23, 2005 00:07
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On 2005-04-22 20:04, Ronaron303 wrote:
Music education.
how you can say that is not help ,when its realy help .
So, what all the fuzz about knowing the music theory ,is ofcoarse moving to contrpoint and then fugga ,that why its all has been made for .
iN old time there are composers said "if you know good fugga ,you are a master of your buesness"
So, learn theory for contrpoint wich is the first step of whole polyphony.
But what?you shouldnt use your imagination then?
For shure you will be but it will give you a more metodical process to see the thing ,how they supose to be for your on your chose and you will be more trained person by music for music ,lets go guys.
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OK. Third and final rant.
I don't think anyone is saying that learning music theory can't be helpful but I think you've hit on something here when you say 'old time composers'. What we're really talking about here is westernised, classical theory of music which is only one of many many ways you can become educated. Nobody has mentioned all the other methods by which a person can learn about or involve themselves in music.
For example the music of many modern cultures has survived because of ancient oral traditions. Did you know that in the hindu tradition many thousands of years ago the Brahmins passed on their sacred musical knowledge, the chants we psy-lovers all love to hear in our chill and trance tracks, their belief and scripture NOT by writing them down but by word of mouth? In the western classical tradition we use an octave of equal temperament....where does that leave indian classical music, with it's quarter tones and slides??? How does music theory help you then? How does it help a trance producer tweaking his LFO? How did it help John Cage or Delia Derbyshire splice their tapes? And yet some of the most amazing music comes from such cultures and non-classical composers.
I'm not saying that there isn't room for music education, or room for western theory but it needs to be placed in context; that of being one of MANY ways to learn about music, one method in a world full of different methods. Way too much emphasis is placed on crotchets, clefs, key signatures etc in my opinion. Sometimes when a person experiments with music without these boundaries, its when those boundaries can be pushed.
I said in an earlier (equally long and ranty) post that my own westernised training has often felt limiting to me. I'm sometimes afraid to experiment outside the system I learned for example. You know, if you want to learn counterpoint and fugue, by all means take a music degree and learn how to do it. But if you want to create a squidgy psy sound, you're going to have to sit with your plugin or synth and tweak it until something resonates and no amount of classical theory is gonna help you get that sound, it will be your own inner voice saying 'yup that's the one' by means of experimentation.
And thank god for that or by all accounts we wouldn't have Shpongle. |
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Ott^
OTT
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
488
Posted : Apr 23, 2005 00:46
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On 2005-04-23 00:07, floatyhippyflower wrote:
OK. Third and final rant...
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Again I totally agree...
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floatyhippyflower
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
538
Posted : Apr 23, 2005 01:12
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On 2005-04-23 00:46, Ott^ wrote:
Again I totally agree...
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Well at the risk of sounding like a panting groupie, I'd also like to thank god you agree or we might not have Blumenkraft, or the Hallucinogen In Dub album. And I wouldn't have bawled my eyes out after your Glasto set last year. You went far with your F in metalwork!
As they say in Waynes World, I'm not worthy.
Smiley Om 3;~ |
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Ronaron303
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
157
Posted : Apr 23, 2005 03:37
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On 2005-04-23 00:07, floatyhippyflower wrote:
Quote:
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On 2005-04-22 20:04, Ronaron303 wrote:
Music education.
how you can say that is not help ,when its realy help .
So, what all the fuzz about knowing the music theory ,is ofcoarse moving to contrpoint and then fugga ,that why its all has been made for .
iN old time there are composers said "if you know good fugga ,you are a master of your buesness"
So, learn theory for contrpoint wich is the first step of whole polyphony.
But what?you shouldnt use your imagination then?
For shure you will be but it will give you a more metodical process to see the thing ,how they supose to be for your on your chose and you will be more trained person by music for music ,lets go guys.
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OK. Third and final rant.
I don't think anyone is saying that learning music theory can't be helpful but I think you've hit on something here when you say 'old time composers'. What we're really talking about here is westernised, classical theory of music which is only one of many many ways you can become educated. Nobody has mentioned all the other methods by which a person can learn about or involve themselves in music.
For example the music of many modern cultures has survived because of ancient oral traditions. Did you know that in the hindu tradition many thousands of years ago the Brahmins passed on their sacred musical knowledge, the chants we psy-lovers all love to hear in our chill and trance tracks, their belief and scripture NOT by writing them down but by word of mouth? In the western classical tradition we use an octave of equal temperament....where does that leave indian classical music, with it's quarter tones and slides??? How does music theory help you then? How does it help a trance producer tweaking his LFO? How did it help John Cage or Delia Derbyshire splice their tapes? And yet some of the most amazing music comes from such cultures and non-classical composers.
I'm not saying that there isn't room for music education, or room for western theory but it needs to be placed in context; that of being one of MANY ways to learn about music, one method in a world full of different methods. Way too much emphasis is placed on crotchets, clefs, key signatures etc in my opinion. Sometimes when a person experiments with music without these boundaries, its when those boundaries can be pushed.
I said in an earlier (equally long and ranty) post that my own westernised training has often felt limiting to me. I'm sometimes afraid to experiment outside the system I learned for example. You know, if you want to learn counterpoint and fugue, by all means take a music degree and learn how to do it. But if you want to create a squidgy psy sound, you're going to have to sit with your plugin or synth and tweak it until something resonates and no amount of classical theory is gonna help you get that sound, it will be your own inner voice saying 'yup that's the one' by means of experimentation.
And thank god for that or by all accounts we wouldn't have Shpongle.
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Wow,,,you know what?
As my teacher told me every time and every time:"WE LATE ,WE LATE RON",try to guess what he ment,
ok,ill tell you what he ment saying that.
Because you late body, with all of yours theory and non theory discovers ,your music that you create or hear ,has been created by the composers of the past .
Well if you will ask to wich side of music i belong,i ll answer european system scales ,traditional music theory,
To be honest ,i realy can find in classical compositions that thing that you gave ann example with indians,but belive me it will sounds other to me ,then for you and vice-versa.Cause every person understand personaly different the mood of compositions then any other.
Yeah ,and you know that INDIAN music have 72 scales? well ,it will be a bit hard to hear all of them ,dont you think the same?
So on,i ll back a bit ,those old time composers names is Hyden and many other that thode that way about fugga and contrpoint ,and you cant ignore thing,that nowadays composers and even in psytrance are using contrpoint ,they just call it polyrythm and since there trainings in classical contrpointin is not big ,so they get confuzed from time to time ,to make good polyrythm ,that they think of,because if you know contrpoint ,so its depends on your knowledge of harmony ,dude,and the mistakes are very welcome.
i am not saying that ,if you will never has been learned contrpoint ,you will never will make good polyrythm but if you will ,as i sad before it will be more metodical and will help you to get out of it almost100% of your inner voice.
Funny ,you gave an example about brahmans............
So here is my contrpoint of all our dialog.
Ok,the roots of that psytrance and trance total is ...guess were from ?...ok ,its CELTIC culture and dont think that brahmans ,yeah brahmans were created that culture ,if you know a bit of celtic culture?, they used to do those dances and all kinds of dances and dances.(try to listen to melody and for shure one of examples when its realy comes to celtic culture ,is ,you remember that track of simon witn IM ,simon's girlfriend was singin there ,i see my self ,so that pure one ,and remember all what you hear in psy is almost all celtic culture and not brahmans;) for more info ask your teacher in history i think he will tell you more.
Finaly ,excuse me for my english ,wich is not so clear as yours but try to get the point of mine too ,i ve been searching for answer pretty long .
Yeas you totaly right that the oral singing was all the time the survaivor .but there are facts like if not Franz Shubert we maybe were never be able to hear the master ,the master of contrpoint ,maestro Johann Sebastian Bach and if not maestro Hyden wich was created museum in Lndon(if i right) for A.Mozart ,others if no ,all of Mozart 's compositions would had be lost.
Again i agree about free art ,like one of the biger composers of music M.Musorgsky wich never learned theory ,but had played piano was created a big art of time like "Boris Godunov" and "Kartinki svistavki" and others .
So leave your brahmans and belive in celtic culture wich has more conection into the our dance genre.and tweak lfo as much as posible ,its not going to teach you create music .
its maybe not all but .
cheers
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floatyhippyflower
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
538
Posted : Apr 23, 2005 21:03
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belive me it will sounds other to me ,then for you and vice-versa.Cause every person understand personaly different the mood of compositions then any other.
and tweak lfo as much as posible ,its not going to teach you create music .
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Well, I think I've said enough already really...but I did just want to point out that you've inadvertently highlighted one of the opinions I put forth.
How we engage in music is such an individual thing. So why stick to one language???? That's what music is isn't it? A language? Communication? If we all spoke the same verbal language the world would be a dull place to live...it's no different with music. (As I say that I've come over all embarrassed that I'm English and members are asked to type in English only even though it's a worldwide forum...such is life....)
Look I don't have a problem with classical theory, only with those who think that if you don't 'have' it then somehow it's not real music that you're making, or you aren't a musician...that kind of thing, it grinds my sh**e!
And I would beg to differ that tweaking LFO's doesn't create music because when you play with a synth you play with sound. And the hills are alive with the sound. Of music.
Peace and love and many happy hours with counterpoint Ron 3;~ |
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Patrik Vision
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
22
Posts :
233
Posted : Apr 24, 2005 18:31
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slomi
Inactive User
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
375
Posted : Apr 28, 2005 00:26
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boom Ronaron303
boom floatyhippyflower
keep it on!
i like to read ur folio
" You were born original... Don't die a copy.. "
- Some dude with a beard
Always remember:
Half of the cup is full...And the other half is on its way up... |
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DJSarasin
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
27
Posts :
789
Posted : Apr 29, 2005 14:00
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sure,
I see how you can liken Music to something like Developing Software (using a language)
But there is also the grey area round it.
Say for instance.....I study the Guitar...to a point where i can play with the best of em.....it does not entitle me to be creative and write my own guitar music.
However, learning to play the instument will help you UNDERSTAND the fundimentals of music and develope an ear for it.
I can see how music training in this instance can help.
Its how its helped me.
It also helps me discover new sounds and styles....to introduce into my Electronica.
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DJSarasin
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
27
Posts :
789
Posted : Apr 29, 2005 14:01
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@ Jikkenteki
Agreed mate!!!
Wise man that! |
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-*protoculture*-
protoculture
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
65
Posted : May 2, 2005 21:18
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I agree with Sarasin, musical education does not nescessarily mean that your ability to produce trance will be better. For sure it can be a big help, it lets you see things in a different light, but to tell you the truth, I had musical training and I cant say I utilise too much of that knowledge now. You've got to realise that feeling music is THE MOST important thing in producing anything. If you write something that tingles your emotions, then you're probably heading in the right direction, musical training or not. Another thing I learnt, cause I also studied Sound Engineering, is that when it comes to ground breadking electronic music, such as psytrance for example, there are NO RULES, especially not the rules that you have to learn when you are studying sound for film, or recording a band etc. Things like eq on an analogue desk for a sound, dont nescessarily apply to eq for the same sound produce by a vst in cubase... you just have to have the ability to realise that what you did is goog, or means something to you. It gets a bit blurry when you discuss this in relation to electronic music, because certain things can apply or help you along, I just feel that for me personally the most important thing is what you feel. Even artists who produce music which I personally don't like, I can still appreciate when I see them live and notice that they're having a good time because they realy and truly love what they're playing. |
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-*protoculture*-
protoculture
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
65
Posted : May 2, 2005 21:23
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And with regards to what Jikkenteki says, thats so true. I was also told that music theory is more of universal language (like mathematics) to help producers, artists and conductors to communicate with each other, and doesnt really aid you all that much in writing creative music. Think about it, have you ever tried humming a tune from a trance track to someone so they would recognise it... it doesn't always make much sense. |
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Ronaron303
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
157
Posted : May 2, 2005 23:50
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Hi everybody ,
Ill try to add to the picture.
Questeon: If the music education will realy help you to create the music?
Answer: its depends wich of the programs you study .
If you study performing and not theotetical(theoretical in level of composing)so you will quit as aperformer and not composer and vice versa.
A)Well,al the guys who already studied guitar and piano and other instruments as a performers will be probably performers ,i am speaking ,to perform in classical or jazz conserts wich is more complecs then any ,allmost any pop or other ,lets say psy concert,and they not going to quit as a COMPOSERS.
B)If you study theoretical(to push it to the level of composer) so you will quit as a composer and not a performer,
So ,who think that if he already studied classical or other (lets say college and conservatories and opthers)and didnt found nothing interesting in that ,So he probably did the performing studies.
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Questeon: What help you got after you finished one of the programs ,like as a performer and as a composer(theoretical)?
Answer:A) if you studied the performing ,so you will be able to read fast from the sheet ,to learn the program(composition for your repertuar)fast ,yes you will know some point of knowledge of contrpoint and fugga but not any deeper then its need for performers .
B)if you studied the theoretical so yes,you will be composer but wich? nobody knows ,its all depends on you ,where do you want to push your self with that(sorry,the same thing goes with a performer),do you want to seat and do nothing? or do you wnat to analyse day and nigt all kind of composition and write non stop music .well its your chose.
AND THE IMPORTANT NOTE: THE BIG EXPIERIENCE WICH YOU GOT FROM THE STUDYING IS GOING TO HELP YOU,OR ITS ALLREADY HELPS YOU ITS
IN YOU __ITS YOUR PERSONAL TASTE ,YOU TRAINED ALL THE YEARS ,SINCE AGE OF 6 OR 18 OR ANY TILL NOW,YOU TRAINED YOUR TASTE(SHURE ITS DEPENDS ON COMPOSITIONS YOU OR YOUR TEACHER CHOOSE TO WORK WITH BUT ANYWAY)AND IT OR THAT VOICE WILL ALLWAYS BE AS AN ANGRL FOR YOU (OK,I TRYING ALSO TO TELL THAT THE ALL OF ALL KIND EXPIERIENCE WILL HELP YOU ,IF YOU KNOW HOW TO COLLOBARATE WITH IT).
sO, finaly,if you already performer ,so you can lets say to take some of the psy material and analise it ,garmony,melody,structure wich you already hear and nothing will stop you to do it with other 30 or 40 or 100,200 ,300 tracks .cause you are got good school .
and for the guy who been never studying the classical or others programs ,will be the big problem to analise ,lets say first chord of the harmony (and you know what i am talking about here).
otherhand for the composers wich finished theoretical programs will be much easyier to even write one ,cause its that what they learned for .----------------------for example ,lets say ,if you want to show classical athmosphere ,so you should use all the rules that was used by the composers at that time that you want to show .ANY OF THE PERIODS .
and dont forget guys we are not in classical period ,and we should not use all the cadances that they used at that time ,our time is DEFERENT then the time wich has benn past , and our time bring new colours and who knows maybe in the future ,the musical instruments will totaly dissapear ,will be some kind of electrinic machines that connecting to your brain and produce that fealing(i mean inner stuff) VISUALY and SOUNDUALY.So every body of us will be more uniqe then it was in the past.
But i totaly recomend to learn and analise .You know there are people that want just to dig or to compose and not learn,they just want to discover by their selfs and there are people that wnt ot know more then they discovered by their selfs ,so they go to the teachers and ... trying to learn more about that(music or others they like ),history ,theory ,prforming as well ,and they got finalyy ,lets say better result with trainings then non,cause with the teacher you got two points of view .
Also on word about production,about one of our sides of brain ,yes you should be a good technicaly skilled and know how to produce your own material ,(+sound design and pthers)but in the way you hear its already used ,like tradicional methods ,and then go thru.Its realy very important for psy ,so if you have a chance to go to some school for production ,do that .In Israel you have buch of them everywhere ,starting from creating you own kick drum and finish with full production of your own material ,they also use to learn some of the theory((roots,keys)simple theory)and if you not have one near or far from you ,so find some artist lets say or person who knows that bazar and try to take a lessons(for shure it payeble expirience)it will push you to the new level of ptoduction and you will at some moment will forget about one of your side of the brain wich is produce and start to remember yor composition skills ,what you had learn in the programs of conservatoire ,or privete lessons.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------maybe i forgot some thing ,so please correct me.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for all posts ,you found the time,but specialy for Protoculture wich is hard working man ,i mean psy industry and also still learning in universuty if i am wright.
Cheers
RonAron303 |
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