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Producing and mixing with limiter on master-channel
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Medea
Aedem/Medea
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127
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1132
Posted : Oct 15, 2007 21:42
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I think it has been discussed before, but search didn't help me...
So, the question is in the thread title - do you use limiter on master when produce and mix?
I do so, because limiting changes freqs as well as dynamics, and using limiter on master when mixing helps to imagine how the track will sound after mastering...
One more question by the way... I know that its better to get the track sounding maximum loud, before mastering, so i want ask what treshold do you usually use when master your tracks? For me it's usually from -7 to -5 dB, depends of track...
  http://soundcloud.com/aedem |
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orange
Fat Data
Started Topics :
154
Posts :
3918
Posted : Oct 15, 2007 21:56
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i think u got both wrong...
never use any limiter/ compressor or whatever on the master channel this will affect ur final mix in a bad way.
on the second part is better to get a well balanced mix and have a good headroom for the mastering. (something like -3 to -6 is great)
loudness comes in the mastering part if u send a close to 0db track for master the engineer hasnt much space to make adjustements if something is wrong.
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http://soundcloud.com/kymamusic |
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Medea
Aedem/Medea
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127
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1132
Posted : Oct 15, 2007 22:04
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Quote:
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On 2007-10-15 21:56, orange wrote:
i think u got both wrong...
never use any limiter/ compressor or whatever on the master channel this will affect ur final mix in a bad way.
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I certanly turn it off when render, i just use it when mixing to hear the sound more close to how it will sound in the end, after mastering
http://soundcloud.com/aedem |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
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Posted : Oct 15, 2007 22:17
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I really don't get the idea with using a limiter on the master to mix in a way that would anticipate what mastering will do to the mix.
When I mix my job is to make the mix as good as I can, and when I master I correct any flaws the mix might contain.
Say you have a very fast transient on a certain sound which will not add much to the sound, but it will in effect reduce the headroom of your entire mix.
Using the limiter during mixdown will work to mask that flaw, just like it will when you master the track.
The difference being that when you mix the last thing you want is to hide flaws, but when mastering you of course want to do just that.
If it turns out that your frequency balance was perfect before you sent it for mastering and came back bad because of the limiting the problem is not that you didn't anticipate the effect of the limiter during mixdown, but rather that the mastering engineer did a bad job.
IMO mastering is not a means to an end in itself, and for sure the mix is not supposed to complement the mastering but the other way around.
When you talk about threshold value I assume you mean the amount of reduction?
Regardless of which neither threshold and reduction can be said to have any specific values that is suitable.
The interesting number is the RMS and basically you will adjust the threshold so that you reach the desired RMS (in most releases somewhere in the region of -10dB).
When doing that you will achieve a certain amount of reduction.
If it's above some 5-7dB you will probably have and adverse effect on the sound of the mix and either you have set your RMS target too high or have a problematic mix that have to be adjusted in more ways pre-limiter to help get rid of the offending peaks.
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EYB
Noized
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111
Posts :
2849
Posted : Oct 15, 2007 22:28
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I mostly use a limiter on master while composing and putting the track together - i do the most of mixing without it 
It is useful especially when u trying stuff with synth and fx..
Signature |
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fuzzikitten
Annunaki
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40
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603
Posted : Oct 15, 2007 22:33
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I sometimes throw an L2 on my track aroun -5dB, just to get a more gelled sound. Then I mix into the limiter. This is common with the TC Electronics Finalizer, so I've read.
But really it's just a way to get a different sound, leveraging your maximizers automatic makeup gain algorithm to affect how you compress/EQ elements.
Just don't forget to turn it off when you're bouncing elements to audio. I've done this a bunch of times. Oops. |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
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549
Posted : Oct 15, 2007 23:44
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Quote:
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On 2007-10-15 22:04, MEDEA wrote:
I certanly turn it off when render, i just use it when mixing to hear the sound more close to how it will sound in the end, after mastering
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you just need to think about this concept for a while and surely you will come to the conclusion that this technique is somehow like drawing a color picture with red glasses and then hang the picture on the wall to be seen without red glasses. I can not imagine a single benefit from mixing into limiter and in the end bypassing limiter to bounce audio.
Using a brickwall limiter set to -0.2 dB just to prevent unexpected clipping and maybe limit some extra short peaks that can occur when several elements play together is one thing. Limiting master output on -3 or -5 dB is in my opinion completely pointless and more likely to produce problems than benefits.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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95
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5380
Posted : Oct 16, 2007 16:28
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
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5306
Posted : Oct 16, 2007 17:43
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agree 100% ^^
(tho i got some not bad results with expender , lower volume , eq , and re compress , no gold here , but better then (slightly) fucked up thingo i got and the artist dont have files)
i might have limiter on the master but turned OFF and once in a while i will turn it on just to listen what happens , or when friends come if i wanna give them short preview...
not recomend to work with limiter on master all time anywayz
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
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5306
Posted : Oct 16, 2007 17:48
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Quote:
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On 2007-10-15 22:33, fuzzikitten wrote:
Just don't forget to turn it off when you're bouncing elements to audio. I've done this a bunch of times. Oops.
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good reason not to do it from first place also. couple of this little mistakes can fuck up pritty ciriously your mix , not that i dont use limiter on seperate channels , but i wanna know why and when not just random short term memory lose 
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AvS
Started Topics :
9
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464
Posted : Oct 16, 2007 19:10
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Mixing with a compressor on the 2 buss (the whole mix) i quite normal. Many pros do this. Don't know about using a limiter though.
I never do it myself. I'd like the get the energy in my track without the use of a compressor/limiter. |
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Suloo
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
87
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2822
Posted : Oct 16, 2007 19:48
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I usally use the vintage warmer on the master..i like it how it works..so it gives the mix a nice plus in pressure...any bad opinions about that? i mean...it works good for decreasing the dynamic range...so like most of professional productions got a dynamic range of about 5 or 6db except of the breaks for sure..i still can lower the db level to -3 to give it to mastering...and i boost the mix just a tiny bit with the vintage warmer..does anybody work like that as well?
greez
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Oct 16, 2007 23:40
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I usually mix straight into a couple of compressors, a soft clipper, a hard clipper and a limiter. *cough*.
UnderTow |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
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1560
Posted : Oct 17, 2007 00:02
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Quote:
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On 2007-10-16 19:10, AvS wrote:
Mixing with a compressor on the 2 buss (the whole mix) i quite normal. Many pros do this. Don't know about using a limiter though.
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Compression is a bit of a different issue.
Sometimes it can be used as a creative tool to get the mix to sound in a certain way. Hip-hop comes to mind as one obvious genre where compression can be a vital part of the mix.
If you doing slower and more minimalistic stuff I guess it can be used creatively for trance sometimes as well.
With more busy stuff I don't think it's as useful...there is just not enough space and time for pumping effects.
You can get the mix to gel a bit more using conservative settings on a transparent compressor, but if you like to do that I would still recommend recording a version without so the mastering engineer can decide if he can do a better job at making the mix gel.
Limiting is a whole different business though and really makes it very hard to make a decent mastering job, and I doubt it will improve your mixes by using one while mixing.
@Mtz Mtzz
The vintage warmer is a very nice plug in some cases, but I would be careful with using it on the master.
Sure you might hear an improvement to punch and loudness when putting it on, but the idea when producing is not to have what you hear to be as flattering as possible to the mix, but as revealing as possible.
People pay a lot of money to make sure the monitors doesn't compress the sound to be able to hear properly what going on in the mix, and using VW when mixing just seems insane to me...it's free to turn it off and instantly get more accurate monitoring
Work on your mix and make it sound the best you can without anything on the master, then when you saved a clean version you can attempt to make your own master using VW if you like.
Personally I only use it on rare occurrences when mastering since I don't find that the colouration it gives improves good mixes.
But if you mixes sound a bit thin and sterile it can be a nice tool to warm them up.
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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Posted : Oct 17, 2007 02:53
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