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Plug in Chain Order Suggestions
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
84
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981
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 05:34:16
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Something I feel I've greatly overlooked is the effect that changing the order of a plugin chain can alter the sound.
Cubase 4 (finally) includes drag and drop re-ordering which I expect is a huge boost to experimentation and quickly hearing subtleties of reordering.
My present situation makes it very difficult to hear differences.
First I save the settings of the effect I want to move, close it, reopen in a different slot then recall - I may have to do this to 2 or more plugins if the slots are overused - this is useless for A/B comparison.
The alternative (if possible) is to open 2 sets of plugins is different orders. Then bypass different sets.
However, I've never been motivated enough to try and the method is less than ideal.
Does anyone have any explanations or suggestions for ordering plugins?
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Here are some of my personal preferences, they are very non-specific as settings vary between sounds. Hopefully this will spark some debate.
Feel free to bash my suggestions if adequate explanation is included.. This is a learning forum after all 
YOU MILEAGE MAY VARY etc...
Sound > Send Effect > reverb > EQ
I send most of my sounds to reverb on a send bus, this helps give the song a more 'in the same room' feel. I usually use around 5 reverbs though. E.g. early reflection, big predelay/deep far away, general room ambience, mega long for big smashes and short left and right to give panned sounds a balance (ie sound panned left > send to > reverb on right, maybe a bit of room ambience too).
I usually EQ after the reverb to let the entire sound pass through and interact with itself properly, EQ after removes excess high and low frequencies to allow a more mid range reverb which isn't too bright or boomy.
EQ > expander
I expand after EQ to prevent unwanted frequencies getting louder and being harder to cut out after.
Main LPF/HPF before shaping EQ.
If a sound needs a low or high pass filter, I do it before the cosmetic or surgical EQ. I feel that any EQ boosts or cuts near the cutoff might interact undesirably with the LPF/LPF.
Coloured 'vintage' EQ > compressor > clean EQ
Correct me if I'm wrong, but compressors can remove high frequency information?
Anyway, that is partly the reason I EQ to make the sound nice and warm, then compress to remove peaks, then boost some of the lost information back with a transparent EQ.
To me, it seems like squashing a nice sound is better than squashing then attempting to make it nicer after?
Compression > EQ
Generally if the sound just needs compression, I EQ after to prevent any boosted frequencies setting off the compressor. Unless that's the effect you're going for, like de-essing..
EQ > Delay
I'm pretty sure its easier to cut from the original sound before it makes hundreds of copies of itself and bounces them all over the stereo field!
Compressor / Delay ??
Not sure about this one. Compress a whole bunch of the same sound, or fix one and then create copies of it..
I'd go for compress first..
My general mastering chain: (subject to change)
- gentle transparent compression
- Good bass EQ with cut + boost on individual bands (pulteq style)
- General mix EQ (URS Fulteq is my fave)
- Stereo imager (Nomad factory)
- gentle peak compressor (Kjaerhus GCO1)
- gentle compressor with long attack/long - release analogue tube model with lots of input gain. (BT FA770)
- Limiter (TC Works currently, but I'm yet to find a limiter I truly love)
Should be ordering a UAD card next week if I can hide my expenditure from my girlfriend. I hear the precision limiter is very highly regarded.
Hope this has inspired some replies. I've heard repeatedly that ordering can make a big difference to the sound. As someone striving for the best sound I can get, I'm very interested in what everyone else has discovered and chosen as their preferred order and for what reason. |
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Saii
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
83
Posts :
318
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 08:51
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Sick bro! i really really agree with everything you wrote here....and about the compression/delay part, i usually do it the other way but im gonna give the compressor first a shot....thanks for this....
P.S. we need more of these concrete threads...
Thanks
 saii.rave.ca |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 10:55
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Nice thread - I work I suspect slightly differently (as indeed we all do )
Here is how I set things up *basically* (although I wouldn't hesitate to alter this if I felt it was needed)
Sound Into Channel>> EQ1 >> Compressor and/or Disto >> EQ2 >> OtherFX >> Possibly another comp >> EQ3 >> Sends
The thinking being, I control the signal before it goes into the compressor to ensure that the compressor isn't working too hard, and then I shape the signal out of the compressor/disto afterwards such as cuts, and shelves, and notches or boosts away from peak value of signal, although shelves can be useful pre comp/disto too (but not cuts, normally, IME).
Then I insert 'other' effects such as chorus/flanging/phasing/delay/*fx* reverbs - whatever really. I do this here, so that the sound is already set up, under control and sounding good, and I'm not compressing the new effect without explicitly choosing to do so.
Depending on the fx I put in at this stage the signal may now need further compression - especially if I'm using a slow phaser, flanger, or something which has the power to really mess up the volume of the signal over time. Nearly always I'll apply EQ after this stage, whether I Compress or not, as the prior fx (and compressor) can alter the freqs in an undesirable way.
Then I send the signal to reverbs and delays on send channels, for mix purposes.
Typically, I run 1 reverb (which I spend a very long time setting up, and getting just so - I think that is all that is needed - remembering that this is in addition to any fx on the actual channel which may or may not include a verb), and 4 delays. One set at 3/16, one at 1/4, one at 1/2 and another at 1/1.
There is another eq after all the send channels, to deal with any ringing that the send device may induce. I do not directly compress the sends, although I may well run a *very* gentle compressor on the final out.
RE: delay - comp. Unless I am specifically after that heavily compressed, non-fading delay effect (which is really fairly rare), it goes after the comp, and stays there!
Mastering - I will generally try anything, but, most often, I work with vintage sounding emulations.
so again
move towards peak value EQ
gentle compression
move away from peak value EQ (cuts, some notches)
GENTLE limiting.
also possibly the merest whiff (the very merest) of ambience reverb (in the 1-2% MAX wet region), or running the mix through a tube emulator, or other harmonic generator, and various other bits and pieces, such as phase rotators, or other bits of oddness, all plugged in anywhere before the limiter that sounds good. .
http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
84
Posts :
981
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 18:29
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Lots of thread views, I think people are holding out on their secret recipes!
I'll post a few more chain-orders as I think of them. I'm working on something at the moment and making mental notes as I work.
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sly
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
183
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 19:39
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Quote:
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On 2008-07-08 18:29, Tomos wrote:
Lots of thread views, I think people are holding out on their secret recipes!
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i guess people never really thought about that 
actually there are so many nice chains if you really know what each plug does exactly (i don't say i do, but always trying out new stuff).
really agree with speakafreaka about eq. very often using eq >> comp >> eq >> fx (>> eq).
i like delay >> eq >> other fx
but according to this subject i'm just not good enough to really share tips. but nice thread. go on...
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 21:58
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to me the only way to know the best chain order is to move the fx order and try them all ...i have been surprised so many times ,it s not something you can guess before trying( at least with eq compression and distortion /harmonic enhancer ) |
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
84
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981
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 22:12
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I'm sure that experienced engineers have an idea of what will work best, they can't spend all their time re-patching everything to see if it sounds better.
There must be a few guidelines. |
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Seamoon
Seamoon
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
314
Posted : Jul 8, 2008 22:17
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what i like to do is send a sound to a group and compress it. Now send it to a reverb but not from the group channel but from the original channel.
This way you have a compressed dry signal + uncompressed reverb signal.
http://soundcloud.com/seamoon |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : Jul 9, 2008 12:10
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it s not something you have to worry about imo ... if you put eq first or compressor first or this fx and then this one ...... if you have good source and you tweak well the plugs it ll sound good no matter what order you use.
but it can be intresting in a artistic way but then you know waht you want to archieve so you know waht order to use... like a distortion after a reverb or things like that or eq the sound before a fx to change the sound of the fx ...
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Jul 9, 2008 14:55
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i always have the delay and reverbs last
not wanting them to be compressed
unless i do want them compressed hehe
anyhow 50% of the times they will be in send might compress that send tho
about your masterng chain i feel it invole way too much compression , i only use 1.1:1 compressor and limiter not too harsh and still having blast of rms |
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Domi
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
36
Posts :
444
Posted : Jul 9, 2008 15:20
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Medea
Aedem/Medea
Started Topics :
127
Posts :
1132
Posted : Jul 9, 2008 15:30
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Didn't hear this track, but I suggest it's "reversed reverb". AudioEase Altiverb has this option. Also, you can reverse the audio file in Wavelab or Sound Forge, apply any reverb to it, and then reverse it back.
http://soundcloud.com/aedem |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jul 9, 2008 15:53
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Quote:
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On 2008-07-08 05:34:16, Tomos wrote:
Sound > Send Effect > reverb > EQ
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Try EQing sounds before they go into the reverb. It can give a very nice effect. For instance, the Lexicon Pantheon Reverb has a very dense rich sound. Too dense for my taste. Removing some high-end before hitting the Pantheon smooths things out nicely for me. (Many reverbs have a built-in EQ pre the reverb algorithm. The Pantheon doesn't so doing it yourself can give that softer warmer reverb).
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I send most of my sounds to reverb on a send bus, this helps give the song a more 'in the same room' feel. I usually use around 5 reverbs though. E.g. early reflection, big predelay/deep far away, general room ambience, mega long for big smashes and short left and right to give panned sounds a balance (ie sound panned left > send to > reverb on right, maybe a bit of room ambience too).
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I tend to use one or two reverbs max. Reverb can clutter up a mix real quick! Also I don't use reverb on all elements. For instance, very often I will only reverberate the snare in drums. If done well, it will give the illusion that there is reverb on all elements but without the mess and clutter.
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I usually EQ after the reverb to let the entire sound pass through and interact with itself properly, EQ after removes excess high and low frequencies to allow a more mid range reverb which isn't too bright or boomy.
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I tend to just hipass the reverb output and try and control what is going into the reverb (if needed). You don't need to remove what isn't there.
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EQ > expander
I expand after EQ to prevent unwanted frequencies getting louder and being harder to cut out after.
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How often do you use an expander? I occasionally use it on a drum loop or something but that is very rare. I rarely find the need to expand when making electronic stuff.
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Main LPF/HPF before shaping EQ.
... I feel that any EQ boosts or cuts near the cutoff might interact undesirably with the LPF/LPF.
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I usually use an EQ with built in filters. Btw, the interaction between the filters and peak EQs can be very useful. Some EQ shapes can only be achieved this way. (Or combining shelves and peak EQs etc).
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Coloured 'vintage' EQ > compressor > clean EQ
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I have no real rules for this but I am much more likely to do it the other way round: Clean EQ to get rid of crap, compress and then a more colourful EQ.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but compressors can remove high frequency information?
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They can. Try experimenting with side-chain EQ/filters. You can tune how the compressor affects the sound by tuning the side-chain signal.
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Compression > EQ
Generally if the sound just needs compression, I EQ after to prevent any boosted frequencies setting off the compressor. Unless that's the effect you're going for, like de-essing..
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Again, try experimenting with side-chain EQ.
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EQ > Delay
I'm pretty sure its easier to cut from the original sound before it makes hundreds of copies of itself and bounces them all over the stereo field!
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It isn't easier or harder. the EQ is still only working on one stereo signal. I choose the order depending on the desired effect. I might want the original sound to be full bandwidth and the delay to be band limited. That means EQing the delay return.
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Compressor / Delay ??
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Usually yes but sometimes I want to bring out the delayed signal more and tweaking the delay itself isn't giving me the right results (quickly enough). Slapping a compressor over the delay usually sorts that out.
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My general mastering chain: (subject to change)
- gentle transparent compression
- Good bass EQ with cut + boost on individual bands (pulteq style)
- General mix EQ (URS Fulteq is my fave)
- Stereo imager (Nomad factory)
- gentle peak compressor (Kjaerhus GCO1)
- gentle compressor with long attack/long - release analogue tube model with lots of input gain. (BT FA770)
- Limiter (TC Works currently, but I'm yet to find a limiter I truly love)
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I never use any stereo enhancing effects on my master (for my own projects). I much prefer effecting certain sounds and leave the rest untouched. This gives a _wider_ stereo field! and keeps the mono elements cleaner and punchier.
I usually have progressive levels of compression after each other. So I start with longer attach/releases, lower ratios and lower thresholds and end up with faster attack/releases, higher rations ratios and thresholds. (The last step being a brick-wall limiter, the attack/release are close to zero and the ratio is infinite).
This means that the more gentle compression affects most of the signal in a very subtle and gentle way and each next step affects less of the signal (higher thresholds) but more radically.
Here is a chain I used recently to master an "album":
PSP Neon HR (Individual EQ on each track)
PSP MasterComp (This and the following plugins are on a master bus for all tracks).
Voxengo Varisaturator
Voxengo Crunchessor
Flux Solera
Voxengo AFTapeBus
Voxengo Elephant
PSP Xenon
Each step removes less than a dB or so of dynamics but together achieve a lot of dynamic reduction while not taxing any of the individual plugins (read, it stays clean).
UnderTow |
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Medea
Aedem/Medea
Started Topics :
127
Posts :
1132
Posted : Jul 9, 2008 16:22
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Undertow, do you bounce the file after each compression step or just put all the compressors in chain and bounce the file one time? Step-by-step bouncing may be more "secure" i think, I haven't tested yet;-)
http://soundcloud.com/aedem |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Jul 9, 2008 17:17
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On 2008-07-09 16:22, Medea wrote:
Undertow, do you bounce the file after each compression step or just put all the compressors in chain and bounce the file one time? Step-by-step bouncing may be more "secure" i think, I haven't tested yet;-)
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Certainly not. How can you judge how they all interact if you bounce them after each step? You need to hear the full chain to make the correct adjustments.
Why would it be more secure? I don't see what you mean.
Also, if bouncing after each step, I would be wasting a lot of disk space. That would mean 8 files at 64 bit. That is a lot of data. (32 GB for the album in question). Either that or lose resolution between each step.
UnderTow
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