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Placing bass notes over the kick or not?
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Djones
IsraTrance Senior Member
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267
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1766
Posted : Apr 4, 2006 09:53
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Many say, not to place the bass note over the kick.
But when I listen to Psytrance, it seems as if the bass most ofton overlaps the kick.
What is the general rule?
Or does it only seem that way, because of delay FX???
And how about actually placing the bass over the kick, but triggering the the bass with the kick, using a sidechain compressor? |
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Meta
Meta/Boomslang
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24
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1045
Posted : Apr 4, 2006 10:26
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Not!
This being the production forum, I'm sure there will be some disagreements from a few folks, but part of the general consensus is that modern kick drums already contain such a full range of frequencies that having the kick and bass note together results in a low frequency overload.
To avoid having the combination of such a powerful bass combo overloading and distorting, you'd need to compress the bass down to such a low level that it becomes pointless.
Anyway, if in your track you can hear the bass lacking during the kickdrum hit when there is no bass note, that's a good indication your mix is off or you're using a kick/bass sound combo that isn't meant to be.
Anyway, there are rarely any 100% solid rules - if it sounds good, it sounds good... so if someone disagrees with my above opinions, I'd be interested in hearing some song samples where using the sidechain method improves the sound. I've tried it before using Colin's excellent Waves SC tutorial, and got the concept and function down, but still felt I got better sound without overlapping the notes.
Regardless, you should definitely learn the sidechain concept for other things, it's very useful in a variety of other situations. Even if you don't have the bass note on the kickdrum, you can still run the sidechain setup as if you were going to, in order to give a 'long' kickdrum room to resonate and make a pumping effect to the bass.
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Mute
IsraTrance Full Member
Access Gremlin
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51
Posts :
1046
Posted : Apr 4, 2006 10:30
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i never use bass notes over the kickdrum cuz as Aeon said there is a low frequency overload which is very true , but using sidechaining will help u , my advice would be not to do overlapping notes , its better to keep the bass and kick clean and clear, however thats my oppinion about it!!
cheerz!!!
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gill
Melorix
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
628
Posted : Apr 4, 2006 12:07
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 4, 2006 12:55
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Normaly I would agree not to have any overlaping kick and bass notes but for some reason I ignored that "rule" in my last project and it sounds quite ok (With a side-chain compressor on the bass of course).
gill: It isn't really about EQuing put rather about the placement of the notes in time. If you want to do it anway, use a side-chain compressor over the bassline with the kick going to the side-chain of that compressor. Do a search for more inof on side-chain compression.
UnderTow |
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gill
Melorix
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
628
Posted : Apr 4, 2006 13:29
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hmmm ... ok
but putting the sidechainer on the bass alone ... ok I'll try it ...
Why only the bass?
I was thinking to make the notes shorter too and put the velocity lower...
I guess I have to quit studying for a couple of hours and start experimenting 
http://trishula-records.com/artists-pages/melorix.html |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
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1448
Posted : Apr 4, 2006 13:37
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If you put the side-chain on the bass, each time the kick hits, it will push the volume of the bass down. The kick should always be at its full volume ...
You can also do it with velocity of course but there are two advantages to using a sidechain compressor:
1) Once you set it up so that it sounds good, you don't have to tweak velocities each time you change the bassline.
2) You can tweak the compressor to add some groove to the way the kick and bass interact.
UnderTow |
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JaLi
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
173
Posted : Apr 4, 2006 13:59
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I remember listening to eat static live..
Man they were having bass drums playing together with single bass hits...
Their mixing was a masterpiece"
Reasons to be cheerful are 3..! |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Apr 4, 2006 14:26
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ebm style is mostly distorted reverbed kick & bass simultaneously. different kind of feel. trance style is definitely kbbb kbbb kbbb kbbb.
(sidechained bbbb is just artificial kbbb )
u wanna different style imo. |
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TuK
TuK
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41
Posts :
228
Posted : Apr 4, 2006 14:42
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there is no problem puting the bass over the kick,
its just hard work you have to cut the right freq' and sidechain comp helps , a good way is to use a freq' spectrum and see what you cut.
in my opinion a rule not putting the bass over the kick is very limmiting and stops creativity, the best kick/bass grooves are done with bass over the kick. |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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Posted : Apr 4, 2006 16:05
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When I do fast psy basslines I never overlap the kick and bass - in fact I do a test bounce of just the kick and bass to make sure there is digital silence between each note/kick. I haven't sidechained my kick and bass more than three times since before I wrote that tutorial! :-P
I would disagree that "the best grooves are done with bass over the kick"... if you have the right kick/bass combo you can't tell AT ALL that there is no overlap. Sadly many people don't take the time and care to get it right, leaving an obvious hole in the bassline where the kicks are.
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Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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diskonekt
Fat Data
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37
Posts :
1112
Posted : Apr 4, 2006 16:05
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You can also put an eq on your bass channel and automate the lows - or instead of it just automate filter cutoff on the bass so it don't "crash" with your kick.
Peace, Love, Death metal |
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e-motion
IsraTrance Full Member
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71
Posts :
933
Posted : Apr 4, 2006 16:07
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i've followed that rule for many time but in my current project i have used 4 bass notes and i like how it sounds. you'll need to lower the velocity of the notes when the kick hits and use a well-tweaked sidechain compressor. |
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Djones
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
267
Posts :
1766
Posted : Apr 4, 2006 16:22
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Quote:
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On 2006-04-04 16:05, Colin OOOD wrote:
Sadly many people don't take the time and care to get it right, leaving an obvious hole in the bassline where the kicks are.
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So how do you ge it right? |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 4, 2006 16:25
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Djones: By taking the time to get it right.  If there is a gap, then it isn't right. If it is rolls nicely, the it is! (Assuming you want that rolling feeling).
UnderTow |
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