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Performing live, some inspiration and exchanging of different ideas and concepts
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Sep 9, 2006 17:49
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triggered by this very interesting discussion...
http://forum.isratrance.com/viewtopic.php/topic/91820/forum/1/start/0
I think it would be nice to exchange some concepts of different users how you are able to perform live instead of just using the "play-button". i think the reason why many dont perform live is the point that many have no idea how the can setup a system which is easy to handle and can reproduce livesound on a satisfying level. so this discussion has party allready done but i want this to have progressive and constructive exchange of concepts.
i gonna start with presenting my personal set, all of you are wellcome to join. please share your ideas. we all can learn from each other.
here we go..
________________________________________________________
my personal philosophy is that it makes no sense to make it all "live" when the arrangement and timeline of the set is still fixed and not very flexible. in this case from my point of view you can also make cd and play it, would have the same effect and less kilogramms to carry with. so i was searching for a setting which is flexible but not leaded with tons of equitment something you can take with you easy by plane and bus but must offer the possibility to create an individual music experience depending on the mood of the party without a fixed timeline and tracksetting.
my actual solution is:
hardware:
- notebook, ableton-live
- controller (edirol Edirol Pcr-m-30)
contains 8 faders, 8 srewknobs and 32 keys.
overall package: just 2 bags. included firewire-audio, powerplug with powersplitter, audio-cables, foamed material to protect the equitment from vibration.
files:
each track is seperated into 4 tracks:
A) Sub | kick & bass
B) Percussion | drums and hihats
C) FX | pads, noises, background, fills
D) Leads | everything like hooks, leading lines etc.
the exports are original, means if you would start each of the 4 tracks in the same time in ableton without using loops you would listen exactly to the original track (lets call it 'main-track' to make it clear what the original track is)
the 8 faders of the controller control 2 main-tracks in the same time. (2x4 tracks = 8) means that all 8 faders are used for the volume. every track is able to be started and stopped by one piano-key on the controller. another key is for switching on/off the loop of each track. (the loop itself is setup by mouse or by typing-in the parameters, i prefer the second way mostly). means 8 tracks x 2 keys = 16 keys left => 16 keys from 32 is allready free for starting samples or other functions you want to automate by a bolean midi-advice (a key is pressed or not = 1 or 0 which is perfectly for just making things on or off)
the loop-function in ableton is one of the most important ones. because it offers you the most flexible influence to the sound. you are able to pick out the parts which you want to play longer and others you want to eleminate, with ableton it is possible to switch through different cue-points in the track. means you can completly make a new version of your track live and offcourse smelting 2 main-tracks together very deeply.
so there are 8 screwknobs left now on the controller. virtually you have endless knobs because you can remap all of the just-in-time. this knobs are used for eq and effects like short-delay, long-delay, flanger, reverb, sample-repeat, compression etc. so every track can be punched, destroyed and screwed out of every dimension. it makes also sense to send one controller to 2 or more parameters at the same time which is usefull for breaks and interesting effects.
maybe to the pitch and ultrashort-delay of all tracks parallely for example. this combinations are just endless! even that should be flexible and with ableton it is easy to make a just-in-time-midilearn. to perform spontanous ideas of controller setting live. the best ideas always come on the party.
yeah, thats it.
now, its your turn, looking forward for your ideas.
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Sep 10, 2006 00:50
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Hardware :
Lappy (not mac)
Fruity loops
Nord rack 2 (can work with any synth , if u have it 2-3 days before to prepare presets)
midi keyboard controller
2Xcdplayer
each track exports 3 times
1 hole vesion for labels/realese/internet/whatever you make with it.
1 version mising some elements (for background playback with cd player , also mixing those files like dj)
1 vrsion of the midi-data , synth presets , and anything you need to add live elements on the track like delete cutoff midi info , and tewak it yourself on stage , it sound like the realese version , yet diffrent. or play midi file of your main lead with diffrent synth tewaking it live , if you know to play good also possible to save the sound and play diffrent melody! can remove the percussion part and play it with midi keys , for sure diffrent result then midi-edit , same for fx's.
offcourse you can add/remove/change the concept , but for me , thats live inough for 1 man show , depend offcourse how much you leave for the 3rd version 
 www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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bandarlog
Bandarlog
Started Topics :
44
Posts :
809
Posted : Sep 10, 2006 16:14
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Similar to Mantik, but not as proffessional/varied:
- desktop
- soundcard 8 outs
- mixing table 16 channels
- Ableton
I render:
- bass+kick
- snares
- leads
- the rest
And send this to 4x2 channels on my mixing table. Then live p.a. with possibility of efx on these channels controlled via midi (synth).
This sounds best and can be mixed best because you have control over every part of the song. But I actually prefer my old setup which consists of playing the projects in FL with tweaking of every parameter around. But in order to play one fluent set I'd need two pc's because each project consumes lots and lots of cpu.
http://www.soundcloud.com/bandarlog
http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/bandarlog-memoirs-of-the-moment |
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Psicho
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
41
Posts :
176
Posted : Sep 12, 2006 17:06
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This topic is very interesting. I would like to ask Mantik to post a screenshot of how you set up the track in ableton and, if possible, record a small mix transition between two tracks.
Anyway my "old" way to do liveset, and for me was the most interesting, is a bit different and harder to do. Please note that I used this kind of way because I had my first gig liveset (back in 2004) and I didn't even know how to set it up; I just had ableton and bought a behringer controller, with that I created a full liveset in one week without having no idea of what I was doing (man, I didn't knew about isratrance, eheh).
I used this kind of liveset when I used to make music in reason, right now everything is changed for me but I would like to get back to this kind working way in my new 2person project.
You can have an idea of how my loop liveset works 
http://www.ctgmusic.com/song.php?id=9237
Hardware:
- Ableton Live (Mac or PC)
- Behringer BCR-2000
- Possibily an external midi keyboard or synth
Preparation:
Mabye you may already have seen a d'n'b or breakbeat liveset made in ableton; the way I work my liveset is the same and give you the freedom to change about everything in your live.
Get the track and split it in many loops for any channel. The loops should be of about 16 or 32 bars.
I divide the track in mainly 8 loops: Kick, Bass, Hit Hats, Percussion, Effects 1 and 2, Lead 1 and 2 . This would be the live triggerable loops, you can create as many others loops to add to the arrangement but they will not be triggered live (because I have only 8 controllers knobs/buttons).
Then, for every track, I split out loops of midi sounds/arpeggios.
I also check out new sounds, loops to add to the live track.
All those sound goes in a folder called "Track #"; do a folder for every track in your live.
Arranging the live:
When I have everything set up I arrange the whole live in the Ableton Scene layout (not the normal arrangement) and I arrange them in a bit different way from the original song; I add new loops, change the structure and do some fx's.
I also add the midi loops (changed or played by different instrument (hardware synth too)) to the track so that I can play them live.
So I arrange the whole track and when I'm about to do the transition to the other track I start mixing the loops of one track with the loops of the other, adding new fx's, arpeggios, and mood. With this you can create a "new" song, between the two tracks, using some sounds of one track and some sounds from the other.
I also add here and there some percussions loops, voice samples and transition effects (new or got from other songs in the liveset).
So I build up a complete liveset made with progressive transitions, new music parts (that may become real tracks or remixes in future); in this way.
Setting up the controller:
The controller is the way I move in the arrangement; the liveset is in the scene view, so if you don't keep on chaning the scenes you will be in a dead-point keeping looping the same sound forever.
I set up the controller to manage the 8 volumes of the 8 loops track, the start/stop of every loop, the main position in the scenes (use the controller as a computer mouse and move around the scenes with that), the sends and so on.
The remaining knobs are used to set up effects such as phasers, delays, etc etc.
Playing live:
Ok now is the "hard time".
With this way you play your live "LIVE" because you have to start every scene row. This means that you decide when a row should start or if you want to repeat a part of the track more times.
You decide when to start/stop one of those tons loops you have made (anytime in the track) and how many time s it should play.
For example you can keep on playing a kick+bass scene and keep on adding other loops from to create a complete different mood.
If you see people dancing and screaming to a certain loops you have made, you can keep on that loop playing and just change the other sounds of the track.
Well, it's a bit difficult to explain, I would help more, if somebody is interested, by talking bout this in PM.
Playing this way you are always busy, the music will don't have mood and vitality if you are not working right on it.
Tricks:
If you are inspired, you will notice that the liveset structure changes everytime!!!
IF you have made everything in loop but you don't like the way of playing this kind of liveset then you can always go to the arrangement version and rearrange the liveset (in loops) there and have the freedom to do as many changes, with the loops order, as you want.
--
Please, comments are appreciated --
Sometimes more psy, sometimes more trance
http://www.soundcloud.com/Rasael
http://www.myspace.com/Rasael85 |
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
84
Posts :
981
Posted : Sep 12, 2006 17:26
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I don't play live (yet)
But I found this an interesting read .... ripped it off the Son Kite website.
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When we get a booking we always send a technical rider/contract to the
organizer that he/she have to confirm/sign. In the technical rider you get
all the information about what we need to be able to make our performance
and since we bring around 100 kilo equipment ourselves the organizer don’t
need to arrange much. Just to make sure that we will get everything we need
our manager always calls three times to the organizer to make sure that they
have arranged everything we need. Important to add is that we don’t ask for
things just for fun: EVERY thing we ask for is used in our live set and if
we don’t get it we can’t perform. To us this sounds very easy and logic,
doesn’t it?
Here comes a short story/example of how it can be when you’re touring and
end up with an unprofessional organizer. This story is from the Souleclipse
festival in Turkey, they made all the mistakes an organizer can do! Please
note that they are not the only ones doing mistakes but this was just
hilarious!!!
We took the flight from Sweden to Turkey 6.30 in the morning (just to make
sure that we got to the festival in good time) and arrived at the festival
in turkey late afternoon and there where nobody to pick us up at the
airport… got picked up a few hours later (because some juicy champignons
were going to get picked up), arrived at the festival area around 01.00. We
where supposed to play around 8.00 in the morning so there was a lot of time
to prepare the liveset…. We thought!! Went to the stage and tried to find
someone in charge. We couldn’t find anyone so we had to do all the stage
management by our self, until our dear friend and angel Sally Dollally came
and saved us. (Without her help there wouldn’t have been a live set from
us). From 01.00 to 08.00 the three of us were working our asses of just to
get hold of the equipment we need to be able to play … but after scanning
the festival site for hours we couldn’t get the stuff we needed and had to
find out new ways with the things they had (12 hours before that the
organizer made a personal promise that he had ALL the equipment in front of
him and that he personally would show it to us when we arrived (we never saw
him!!!))
So finally we have enough equipment to play with … but where? Before our gig
was four “live acts” in a row, all just using a laptop playing a stereofile!
When someone is playing you can’t connect four meters of equipment (on a two
meter table) since you then would have to disconnect the stuff he’s playing
with (even thou it’s just a computer thru a 48 channel mixer and even thou
it would sound exactly the same if he just pressed play on the cd player).
This is the reason why you ALWAYS should have one dj in between two
liveacts. To be able to play we had to build a new table behind the other
one … and do you think we got any help (except from Sally of course)? Anyway
we managed to get everything ready 3 minutes before our timeslot, this means
7 hours of non stop stage-managing, stage building and equipment hunting,
all well wrapped in frustration and irritation! How much motivation do you
think we had to play? How much energy to do you think we had for smiling,
improvising and to get into the music?
Different people are responsible for different things, also when you’re
making a party. The only thing an artist should be responsible for is
performing, at his/her absolute best … the party organization should work at
its best to create the best circumstance for the artists to perform and for
the audience to enjoy the performance … that is the point with having a
concert or a music festival. People that love our music paid a lot of money
to see us in Turkey and because of a shit organization we couldn’t do a good
job, we are very sorry for this but we hope that people understand the
reason. As I said before this organization is absolutely not the only one
that don’t know what a technical rider is, at least half the time we play we
have to make weird solution to be able to play. If you’re an organizer you
should know your work and take it serious since you have a responsibility
towards artists and most of all; your customers.
BUT we believe that the problem is much more complex than this and there is
an explanation why organizers don’t pay so much attention to our technical
rider. There are hundreds of live acts in the trance scene, playing all
around the world and earning good money … and you could probably count the
ones actually playing live on one hand! Playback live set in the trance
scene is as accepted as djs playing with cd players, people even get
surprised when you actually play live … how sick isn’t that??? If you get
booked and paid for playing live you should play live, if you don’t have the
equipment or the knowledge to be able to play you shouldn’t accept the
booking! If you’re interested to play live, develop your way to play and let
the world know when you’re ready. We totally disrespect all the fake artists
playing around the world (almost every trance artist) and we hope that YOU,
the customers that in the end pay the money to the artists, claim your
obvious right to enjoy live performances when this is what they write on the
flyer! You should print t-shirts with the slogan “FFLA – fu** fake live
artists” and if you come to a party and find an artist not playing live, go
to the door and claim back your money!!! In this way the organizers will
start to claim a non playback live set when they book an artist and
hopefully this would force the lazy m****fu**** to work for their money.
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e-motion
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
933
Posted : Sep 12, 2006 19:54
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Tomos, Kitnam already stated that 
in my humble opinion, altough a true live performance must be well, live, i see no problem with artists that dedicate their performance to cheer up the crowd.
eskimo is a new concept of live. not much hardwork when he plays but shows really hard work in the studio, both making his awesome music and training\creating the mimic of it. eskimo for me is the ultimate live experience due to the power of his music and the mimic is another thing that makes it unique and connects the crowd and the dj is an unique way. and altough many dont consider this, what he does with the perfect sync he has is HARD WORK.
i find this much better than groups that bring every machine in the world to a live performance and don't use them at all. a good example is infected mushroom ! for me this IS being FAKE.
just my opinion. Pyrex :: Traveling without moving
www.myspace.com/pyrexperience |
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koalakube
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
48
Posts :
437
Posted : Sep 12, 2006 21:22
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Quote:
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On 2006-09-12 19:54, e-motion wrote:
i find this much better than groups that bring every machine in the world to a live performance and don't use them at all. a good example is infected mushroom ! for me this IS being FAKE.
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Word.
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
84
Posts :
981
Posted : Sep 12, 2006 21:56
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MY GOD. So sorry, I didn't read the link, just read the thread. :idiot face: |
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