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PC Choice
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 21:07
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 21:08
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WTF are you talking about?
I view the mobo as a component like any other.
Doesn't use the same motherboard? It isn't identical, down to revision level.
So the motherboard itself is part of the specs, I 'spec' a motherboard when I build a new PC.
All these components come with a warranty when you buy them... so you have support, it just isn't centralised by apple.
And furthermore, Steinberg may not support overclocking, but they are on pretty dodgy ground there - as I said, you can buy virtually any component you like pre-overclocked and under warranty. When Steiny ask is the system overclocked, you just answer 'no'. 
And if you choose a third party cooler to start with, it will run cooler, quieter and longer, with NO change to cooling system that you originally install.
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the cool thing about Apple, I just discovered that, that you can trust in what they do. This control (ANY CONTROL) is only needed in an environment/relationship of MISTRUST as a windows user has with windows. So this only proves how burned you are as a windows user needing this amount of control.
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a) you trust apple. this is stupid.
b) wrong - I want my computer to do what I tell it, its the difference between asking 'would you mind terribly doing some processing some time soon?' and 'work, now.'.
c) wrong wrong wrong wrong. Ironically, Unix based systems can offer better levels of control, just that apple chose to bastardise it for the sake of 'user simplicity'. Sounds like a good reason not to trust them.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 21:23
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Its ok spindrift.
It seems to be very important for you to be right here.
As for the overclocking issue. Its so funny you bring that up in the first place. First you argue mac pro so powerful nobody needs, todays system is so powerful anyway bla bla, now, suddenly, you find the possibility to squeeze out every bit of performance out of a CPU a good reason to avoid mac...
Thats ridicolous.
Arguing with you is just the same feeling as I have using microsoft for almost 20 years. An endless waste of time.
My initial statement is still there:
IF SOMEBODY CHOOSES TO SPEND over 2000 Euro for a computer a MAC is the logical choice, because it opens ALL possibilities while delivering little work, supreme hardware, service and reliability over building or overclocking own systems. AND because there is NO PC SYSTEM WITH THAT PERFORMANCE AVAILABLE. I really don't see how you can't agree to that.
If you want to be cheap, spend less than 2000 Euro, waste you precious time on earth with installing hackintosh just to avoid apple hardware even though there is no similar powerful PC hardware for the prize, you are right with a lot you say. But that has nothing to do with what I said.
I personally would feel very stupid to spend 2200Euro on PC components, build and plan it all myself. And a friend would simply buy a macpro with better spec for the same price, better service and no work involved...
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 21:34
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On 2008-03-31 21:23, subconsciousmind wrote:
My initial statement is still there:
IF SOMEBODY CHOOSES TO SPEND over 2000 Euro for a computer a MAC is the logical choice,
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subjective - outside logic.
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because it opens ALL possibilities while delivering little work, supreme hardware, service and reliability over building or overclocking own systems.
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Sorry, the 'service' I offer my PC through knowledge is considerably better then any RTB, and far far quicker. Isn't it strange too, that the people who build never complain about unreliablity? Just the people who buy prefab?
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AND because there is NO PC SYSTEM WITH THAT PERFORMANCE AVAILABLE. I really don't see how you can't agree to that.
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point blank wrong. get a skulltrail, overclock it (exactly what apple have done by the looks of it, and what the board is designed for), only now you have SLi too, should that be of any use to you - its better specced.
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I personally would feel very stupid to spend 2200Euro on PC components, build and plan it all myself. And a friend would simply buy a macpro with better spec for the same price, better service and no work involved...
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again with the subjective and inaccurate.
But that is it - I give up on this aspect of the thread. I don't agree with your opinion here and you don't agree with mine.
I'll even let you have the last word.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 21:45
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On 2008-03-31 21:08, Speakafreaka wrote:
WTF are you talking about?
I view the mobo as a component like any other.
Doesn't use the same motherboard? It isn't identical, down to revision level.
So the motherboard itself is part of the specs, I 'spec' a motherboard when I build a new PC.
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What are you talking about? It was about comparing notebooks via tests. Go back to the beginning of that, you are talking us into nowhere.
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All these components come with a warranty when you buy them... so you have support, it just isn't centralised by apple.
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Well, I didn't know that.. everyhtinh has warranty? Wow.. thats new for me.. Im so happy you told me... so this means If my motherboard dies.. I simply have to rip my computer apart and send it in and then put it back together? Wow that really much better than just sending my complete computer. With no work involved.
Why should I spend 2200 Euro for that, if I can spend 2200 Euro for a computer where support is ripping it apart for me?
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And furthermore, Steinberg may not support overclocking, but they are on pretty dodgy ground there - as I said, you can buy virtually any component you like pre-overclocked and under warranty. When Steiny ask is the system overclocked, you just answer 'no'.
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Wow that is such a good suggestion.. I'm soo impressed. In that case we should squeeze any bit of power out of our CPUs, since we absolutely need it.. a wait.. no we don't need 8 core.. it far to powerful.. even quadcore is more than we need.. a how was that?
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And if you choose a third party cooler to start with, it will run cooler, quieter and longer, with NO change to cooling system that you originally install.
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Very nice.. going through catalogues chosing coolers, smearing paste on the CPU.. its all so cool... and all just to spend the same amount of money instead of buying it out of the box.
As I said.. I'm all arguing from the 2200 Euro to spend.
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the cool thing about Apple, I just discovered that, that you can trust in what they do. This control (ANY CONTROL) is only needed in an environment/relationship of MISTRUST as a windows user has with windows. So this only proves how burned you are as a windows user needing this amount of control.
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a) you trust apple. this is stupid.
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Now, I don't know what to say... I'm really lacking arguments to say anything intelligent now.. aaaamm no.. that is you.
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b) wrong - I want my computer to do what I tell it, its the difference between asking 'would you mind terribly doing some processing some time soon?' and 'work, now.'.
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Yes, so do I.. and what has that to do with all this?
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c) wrong wrong wrong wrong. Ironically, Unix based systems can offer better levels of control
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Hmm to be wrong I would have needed to say that Unix controlled systems allow less control? Could you please quote me on that?
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, just that apple chose to bastardise it for the sake of 'user simplicity'. Sounds like a good reason not to trust them.
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Really?
I trust in computers that do what I want them to do.. To deliver me a stable and powerful DAW. So does mac. Actualy my last windows system did so too, but first I had to learn an incredible amount of knowledge on how to control it. Why?
On my actual system I spend hours carfully overclock my system. I tweaked windows into perfection and spend many hour until all drivers of all hardware etc. etc. worked.
Finally I installed, just for fun, MacOSx on a sperate Harddisk. I took me (once it was installed, which was a pain and would not be necessairy on a mac) 1 hour to install everything, I did no tweaking, not even appearance and it performed same as windows.
Later my motherboard died, I ripped it out, sent it in, got a different type back (cause it was not available anymore) reinstalled it spend another day till windows accepted it while the OSx did as nothing happend, accepted the new chipset etc. etc. whithout any hassle. In the end I had to reinstall windows because it was not stable anymore.. this was the day I realized that Im praying to the wrong god.. since even a hacked OSx on a PC worked a lot better than windows XP.
It still works and it still does what I want it to do even though I have no idea how to control it as I can with windows.
Anyway. So much about my reason to switch.
But anyway. Even if you do not want to switch and spend more than 2000 Euro, (if its about the money) buy a mac and install windows. You wont get the same value from PC.
If you want to spend less than 2000, don't want to switch, build one yourself etc. etc.
As for your new post. Please look up "subjective" "logic" "if clauses" in the dictionary. Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 21:58
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On 2008-03-31 21:23, subconsciousmind wrote:
As for the overclocking issue. Its so funny you bring that up in the first place. First you argue mac pro so powerful nobody needs, todays system is so powerful anyway bla bla, now, suddenly, you find the possibility to squeeze out every bit of performance out of a CPU a good reason to avoid mac...
Thats ridicolous.
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What's ridiculous is to say that you will run out of CPU no matter what system you have, and then claim that it's not relevant that you can get a 50% boost with very little effort for free and with no ill effects.
Yes I did say that spending €2200 on a DAW build is overkill for 99% of users.
But if you find a regular quad core limiting you can get that boost on PC.
It's not contradictory, but offering advice for people that happens to be among the 1% who will overload a quad core.
If you want maximum performance at any cost a overclocked PC cannot be beat.
And even if I might find it stupid to spend 4 times more on a CPU that gives a few % more performance, that doesn't mean that I have to say no to 50% for free even if it's of very little practical use for me.
To keep repeating that getting a Mac is the logical thing to do doesn't make it true.
To claim that the hardware is superior, more reliable or have better support is a very odd statement.
You are aware of that there is quite a choice available for PC components, and that the quality, reliability and support varies quite a lot?
If you think that all components in a Mac is the best that exists you don't have a clue.
It might happen to be the best for your needs and budget if your lucky, but for most people it will very likely happen to be a compromise in one area or the other.
Maybe it's too expensive for some peoples needs, but it can also not be powerful enough for others.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 22:03
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And look at what you did with that last word... 
Needless to say, I'm not short on things to say in response.
I'm going to refrain though, this thread is getting ugly, and it simply isn't worth it.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 22:18
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Things are getting ugly when people are start to use ugly words
I understand your point about the overclocking, Spindrift. So, in case you find a system as the MacPro in the same prize range, the fact one could squeeze even more out of it, could be a reason to buy it over the mac.
A MacPro is also too expensive for me. its all "IF" one wants to spend that much money.
As I said many many many times. In lower priceranges and budgets I agree with you.
Why don't you guys simply show me a PC system. Ready built, 2x 2.8ghz quadcore Xeon, 1600Mhz FSB, warranty, nice silent case, 300GB HD, nice and simple upgrading slots etc. for a prize of the standard mac pro. (which would be appropriate for those willing to restrict themself to one OS and wanting to overclock.)??
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 22:21
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Quote:
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On 2008-03-31 21:45, subconsciousmind wrote:
Very nice.. going through catalogues chosing coolers, smearing paste on the CPU.. its all so cool... and all just to spend the same amount of money instead of buying it out of the box.
As I said.. I'm all arguing from the 2200 Euro to spend.
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No need to look trough catalogues, just get a Noctua, Schyte Ninja or U-120 as recommended in this thread and you have a cooler that is guaranteed superior to what you get in a mac.
And if you are not comfortable to assemble a computer yourself most shops do that for a small fee.
With PC you have that choice.
And if you want complete system support, there is shops that offer that as well.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 22:54
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On 2008-03-31 22:18, subconsciousmind wrote:
Why don't you guys simply show me a PC system. Ready built, 2x 2.8ghz quadcore Xeon, 1600Mhz FSB, warranty, nice silent case, 300GB HD, nice and simple upgrading slots etc. for a prize of the standard mac pro. (which would be appropriate for those willing to restrict themself to one OS and wanting to overclock.)??
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Looking in a swedish shop I can put together a system with pretty much identical spec to a eight x 2.8Ghz mac for €2100 inc VAT.
I probably would spend more on chassi and get nice CPU coolers and more RAM, but this is what they had that gives you a similar spec and is at least decent quality:
EDIT: The motherboard is not 1600Mhz, so add some €200 for one that is.
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INTEL XEON™ E5462 2.8G 1600/12M LGA771 (EU80574KL072N)
ASUS MB DSBV-D/ Intel Dual Xeon 6321 ICH (DSBV-D)
ANTEC ANTEC CASE SONATA III IN (0761345-08142-9)
CORSAIR CORSAIR 2GB DIMM DDR2 800MHZ PC6400 CL5 (2X1GB) (TWIN2X2048-6400C5DHX)
NEC AD-5170-0B DVD-RW 16X BULK BLACK (50031405)
SEAGATE DIAMONDMAX 320GB SATA 8MB 7200RPM (STM3320820AS)
ASUS VGA-Card Radeon HD2600XT 256MB PCI-E 2xDVI HDCP HDTV TV-Out Retail (EAH2600XT/HTDP/256)
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The best price I can find here for the Mac Pro is €2650
So even if you spend more on a few points to get a system even more quiet and powerful than the standard Mac Pro config you are still spending less. (``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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Mike A
Subra
Started Topics :
185
Posts :
3954
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 23:28
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And spindrift is the winner
hehe
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Cannabis
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
246
Posted : Apr 1, 2008 00:22
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When intellectual trance fans can't argue reasonably, then I don't wonder about war's flames everywhere
(me including(not intellectual though);)
STOP IT..
MACs and PCs are both right tools. It's matter of preference.
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Apr 1, 2008 00:58
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Quote:
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On 2008-03-31 22:54, Spindrift wrote:
Quote:
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On 2008-03-31 22:18, subconsciousmind wrote:
Why don't you guys simply show me a PC system. Ready built, 2x 2.8ghz quadcore Xeon, 1600Mhz FSB, warranty, nice silent case, 300GB HD, nice and simple upgrading slots etc. for a prize of the standard mac pro. (which would be appropriate for those willing to restrict themself to one OS and wanting to overclock.)??
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Looking in a swedish shop I can put together a system with pretty much identical spec to a eight x 2.8Ghz mac for €2100 inc VAT.
I probably would spend more on chassi and get nice CPU coolers and more RAM, but this is what they had that gives you a similar spec and is at least decent quality:
EDIT: The motherboard is not 1600Mhz, so add some €200 for one that is.
Quote:
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INTEL XEON™ E5462 2.8G 1600/12M LGA771 (EU80574KL072N)
ASUS MB DSBV-D/ Intel Dual Xeon 6321 ICH (DSBV-D)
ANTEC ANTEC CASE SONATA III IN (0761345-08142-9)
CORSAIR CORSAIR 2GB DIMM DDR2 800MHZ PC6400 CL5 (2X1GB) (TWIN2X2048-6400C5DHX)
NEC AD-5170-0B DVD-RW 16X BULK BLACK (50031405)
SEAGATE DIAMONDMAX 320GB SATA 8MB 7200RPM (STM3320820AS)
ASUS VGA-Card Radeon HD2600XT 256MB PCI-E 2xDVI HDCP HDTV TV-Out Retail (EAH2600XT/HTDP/256)
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The best price I can find here for the Mac Pro is €2650
So even if you spend more on a few points to get a system even more quiet and powerful than the standard Mac Pro config you are still spending less.
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1: I said "ready built" not build one yourself.
2: Apple prizes vary from country to country. Here I get the above spec for 2250 Euro, student prize 2100Euro. In USA you get it for 1900 Euro as opposed to the 2300Euro of your proposal. So depending on the location the prize for the assembled! system you propose can even be beat by apple. And you got it ready to use, only disadvantage: no overclocking.
3: "Winner" .. this is a discussion its not about winning, but learning! People with an attitude like this must be completely unable for a discussion in the first place, I'm sorry for you Mike, that you have to look at it like this. This in no War, where winning place a role. If people really think of discussions like that I can understand why discussions sometime go like this.
I really have no interest in winning anything, I have admited, counterarguments or being wrong in many situation in this thread. Can't see anybody else doing that. But as for the point still being discussed, its no personal opinion or subjective view. I simply didn't find a ready built system comparable to the mac pro. And so far nobody else did.
Still, from my location, in case of spending more than 2000Euro for a computer, OS independently thinking it would be the smartest choice to buy the macpro. No builing, great performance. That has been my point and it still is. I admit the exeption. If somebody wants to overclock it would restrict him.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Apr 1, 2008 01:49
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@SCM
Like I said before many shops can build the system according to your spec.
It's usually about €50.
That was just looking for the parts in the first shop I could find listing the E5462 CPU's in Sweden.
I'm sure you can find cheaper shops elsewhere in Europe...it's not only the mac prices that vary from country to country you know.
I almost never buy hardware in Sweden myself because it's more costly.
But the fact is that as long as you are prepared to wait for a couple of weeks for a shop to get the new CPU's in stock you can certainly build a system that is cheaper with the same spec as the Mac Pro.
That you cannot find anyone trying to sell a ready made package is not so strange considering that stock is due in April.
And the demand for a workstation with the absolutely latest Xeon processors is probably very very low, so I doubt it will be many companies selling ready made builds apart from some servers from for example DELL and HP....and yes...they will cost more than the Mac Pro.
Most people, even if they need a lot of CPU and want an 8 core system, rather save some €600 and get a 1333 Mhz bus. The difference in performance will be not be anywhere near how much extra you have to spend for the absolutely latest CPU. Unless you are a company with a big budget and where every saved minute is really valuable I do think it's crazy to get the E5400 Xeons.
And I'm not trying to win any arguments or trying to tell anyone that it's wrong to get a mac.
I just object to the advice that it's a good idea to get a mac for anyone who like to spend more than €1000 on a computer.
If you have €2200 to spend, think you need the power, like to run OSX and think that the package Apple offer suits you, then a Mac Pro could be the right machine.
But it's far from a logical way to spend your money otherwise.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Apr 1, 2008 08:36
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spindrift.
I said above 2222222! 2000 Euro. Not ONE 1000 Euro!
Here I can't find it cheaper, actually only more expensive.
Spindrift, you managed to find a selfmade system at the same prize. I give you that. But still, even if it is cheaper, it still is only very little and disproves all inital arguments of mac being too expensive etc. Furthermore the prize for the mac has been like this for months now.
Whereas you can't even get the stuff for PC yet.
Just to save maybe only something like 100Euros to take the risk of selfmade system over a proven, warranted system still doesn't make it a good choice. Furthermore you do not have an OS included.
If you have the 2200Euro to spend there is only one reason to buy the package you propose: overclocking.
If you are at 2000Euro it might come down to the little prize difference, if you are willing to get older hardware.
But still, also you DIY idea doesn't change that. Spending more than 2000 Euro on a DIY system over a mac pro is more a "idealistic" choice, than a logical one.
Furthermore, here were ready built systems for that prize recommended, which show by far not the performance of the mac pro. Thats where I popped in.
Explaining why there are no readybuilt systems as the mac pro doesn't say anything to it.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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