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PC Choice
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Mar 30, 2008 23:00
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I can't understand why this discussion is always going into "you don't need that power unless bla bla bla" "you need this and that to bla bla".
Besides the point that many of the examples are simply technicaly wrong (as for the gain of 96khz f.i.) This has no point.
Who is to decide what somebody else needs?
I hate to freeze und bounce, its killing my creativity. I use at least 15 different VST synths per song, and I use predator and other CPU intesive ones. If I work as I want.. without freeze and bounce, I'm killing a Quad in no time.
All I say is: IF somebody spends 2000Euro, and NOT for a Mac. This person is making a mistake. If or not this is justified has nothing to do.
People where recommending and linking to pro PC DAWs in that pricerange. I just wanted to point out that his would be very unsmart investition.
Why spend 2000 Euro for a Computer? Well I would actually not... rather wait till prizes are down as I did with PCs.
But In my opinion staying with Microsoft for music, in view of Vista and lacking 64bit support of many Hardware, is a mistake too. Therefore a switch to mac is a logical consequence, and with mac one unfortunately HAS TO spend 2000Euro for a nice machine..
And still I would prefer Mac would enter the "1000Euro" range.
  Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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orange
Fat Data
Started Topics :
154
Posts :
3918
Posted : Mar 30, 2008 23:44
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im following this thread since the beggining... but after we posted onsome good and expensive pcs for studio use many stated that in this price range u would get a mac.
why? please give me a good reason why i should do that exept ofcourse the use of logic and some other mac only apps!
what is the + of getting a mac ? performance? sound quality? stabillity? status?
from my point of view a well setup pc is a great workhorse with minimum crashes... and macs crash also.
thre are some apps that dont run in macs (flstudio is one) so its essential for someone that uses such an app to get a pc.
others might be comfortable on a pc.
i do agree that osx is easier than windows but in no case a better performer than windows... its all in the way u setup ur studio pc and software.
my pc costs aprox 1500 euros its expensive but it runs great i hardly see any crash.. and i can open a shit loads of plugins with (average of 60-70 vsti and vst) and my latency is 4ms and it works without any glitch whatsoever!
if macs had a better sound than that would be the choice for a studio.. but even since macs use intels this myth is down for good.
its all in the user and not the tool.. its like having 2 identical cars from a different brand to get to the same place!
http://www.landmark-recordings.com/
http://soundcloud.com/kymamusic |
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psylevation
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
52
Posts :
841
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 00:04
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The only differences I see with using a mac over a pc is if you want to use software that only runs on a mac or you like the operating system better.
One other point of view is productivity. If you use a pc a lot of times you'll end up tweaking things to no end to try and get it running the best possible. You also have to run antivirus and spyware stuff if you have it connected to the internet.
If you use a mac, the tweakability is less and there for you are just kinda stuck with what you get. This can be good in a way because you stop tweaking so much and really just make music with the limitations you have.
You can look at it either way and both are just as viable of a solution. I run a pc and I may get a mac sometime as well. Who knows, it's ultimately up to the person using it and their own preferences.
~Airyck~
~Unoccupied Mind ~
Psyowa! |
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Mike A
Subra
Started Topics :
185
Posts :
3954
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 02:18
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On 2008-03-30 23:44, orange wrote:
why? please give me a good reason why i should do that exept ofcourse the use of logic and some other mac only apps!
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Some people think that having an overpriced mac makes their e-penis bigger (no offense mac owners). 
Oh yea, and my WinXP rig didn't crash in 3 years. Well, except a few times when I unplugged a really old USB device while it was doing its thing.
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 14:14
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On 2008-03-30 23:44, orange wrote:
im following this thread since the beggining... but after we posted onsome good and expensive pcs for studio use many stated that in this price range u would get a mac.
why?
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Besides that your Penis will become bigger its very simple:
Choice:
PC - 8 Core etc. etc. 2200 Euro
or
Mac - 8 Core etc. etc. 2200 Euro
Mac because you get Mac OS AND Windows.
Why should anybody choose the restricted machine? You do not even have to use MacOS, buy a mac you get a PC. Why should anybody not buy a mac IF for the selected concept the prize and performance is comparable with a PC? Why restrict oneself?
Besides. Its not possible to buy an 8core PC for that price. Thats why.
IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IFIFIFIFIIF! (assuming somebody wants that) somebody wants to spend that much money for a computer mac is the most intelligent choice.
Buying a Mac today doesn't mean to switch to OSx, but is also a good choice if somebody wants to STAY with windows forever. Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Cannabis
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
246
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 14:44
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I wonder running windows on a mac would be as straight forward as apple wants us to believe. And I am not talking about running a word processor, but heavy duty plug-ins and audio apps with all those funny audio drivers. Does anybody have realworld experience running i.e cubase and XP on a Mac.
Please report (no theoricians please)
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 15:49
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@subconsciousmind
That's not entirely true since you can run OSX on a non-mac as well, at least if you made sure to select parts with that in mind.
You still have less restrictions in your choice of hardware compared to a mac, but have the same flexibility when it comes to software.
And it's wrong to assume that everyone might want to use OSX at some time.
I'm 100% sure that I will not want to do that in the lifespan of a machine I buy today, so that is simply not interesting for me.
And if I wanted to build an 8 core it certainly possible to do that for less than €2200 with a PC.
Infact I could upgrade my current machine to a 2xquad xeon for less than 1/3 of the cost for buying new MacPro.
If I wanted the exact same CPU's as the MacPro it would cost me about €1500 for new mobo and CPU's.
Also if you really need max performance new Intels is very overclocking friendly, but I'm not sure how easy it is to overclock on a mac.
My Q6600 easily runs at 3.2Ghz with hardly any extra voltage, and hence it doesn't get much hotter nor get reduced lifelength.
So that's a free 50% boost in CPU performance that you get for free with a PC, which I'm not so sure you can get with a Mac.
@cannabis
On the Intel macs it's not about emulation, they run Windows just like any PC with no loss of performance.
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 17:41
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@spindrift.
You can't be serious by bringing hackintosh (installing OSx on PCs) and overclocking into this discussion. We are talkling about professional solutions which work seriously and out of the box. Aren't we?
Furthermore comparing the prize of your personal selfbuilt DIY upgrade possibility to a complete ready made mac pro can't be serious.. can it?
AND. where did you find the prizes for the 2.8Ghz Xeon harptown? You can not even buy the 1600Mhz FSB stuff in the PC market yet! At least not where I look for it.
But I found out for you (since your own counterarguments don't work I provide them for you  ): You actually can get a ready built older generation 8 Core dell for about the prize of the mac pro. but thats with 2.66GHz and 1333FSB. But I can let this pass for the discussion.
So if one wants to restrict himself he can actualy get an almost comparable 8core PC for the prize of the mac pro. So, I was wrong about that!
So, if, as you, one is 100% sure he will never change OS, and wants to spend 2200 Euros, he could also get the DELL.. but why? MacPros can be sold to much higher prices the PC even when they are old, furthermore there is much more research in the few mac models than in most other PC manufacturers.
Anyway. Spindrift, your arguments look as if this has become about being right at any prize, not about discussing on a reasonable level, sorry If I'm wrong.
But comparisons have to be made between comparable things.
Those who think and listen will have understood the point.
As for running Windows XP on a Mac. At work I work on Macs with XP on it. Its no emulation. Its the real thing. And installation of drivers and such WITHIN windows is FAR easier than with ANY Pc I've ever owned. Mac is delivering a single complete package of drivers for all hardware which are all installed with one simple double click. No need to install every single driver for grafics, chipset etc. I installed XP on several macs. Its super simple. Only problem one can have is he doesn't let windows format the partition. Then nothing works.
Many tests worldwide have even proven that f.i. the macbook running windows is faster than many same spec. PC notebooks.
I did OSx installation on PC too. Hackintosh. Its working but its a pain in the ass to do, even if you have supported hardware. its illegal, no support, drawbacks.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 18:10
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Many tests worldwide have even proven that f.i. the macbook running windows is faster than many same spec. PC notebooks.
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Many tests are full of total bilge IMO, written by people with an agenda.
Look at it logically. If the specs are identical then there cannot be a difference.
Why shouldn't the price of a self built unit be considered? You can buy exactly the same components as Mac use!
Overclocking has come on leaps and bounds too. Many factory components are overclocked within warranty - many motherboards provide dedicated overclocking facilities. Many CPU's provide unlocked multipliers for the sole purpose of overclocking them. A properly overclocked system is totally stable.
Also, I like installing drivers seperately. Call me odd, but when I'm building a DAW I want to know exactly, down to each and every single piece of software that is going on and off my system. Driver packages, by definition remove this level of control. .
http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 18:44
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On 2008-03-31 17:41, subconsciousmind wrote:
@spindrift.
You can't be serious by bringing hackintosh (installing OSx on PCs) and overclocking into this discussion. We are talkling about professional solutions which work seriously and out of the box. Aren't we?
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I'm very serious about bringing in overclocking to the discussion.
It's very easy to do with many modern mobos and CPU's, and a well worth effort if you are the kind of person who always run out of CPU.
In many cases it's enough with a few hours even for a overclocking newb to gain 50% power.
Of course you can spend more time tweaking to make sure you get max stable clock with minimum voltage, but 50% should be very easy to achieve on most CPU's with hardly no effort.
As for hackintosh I don't see why that would not be an option?
Many people run OSX on non mac hardware without problems, but like I said you have to make sure your hardware will do it without problem first.
Maybe installing OSX is not simply popping in a CD and boot, but from what I have seen it's hardly rocket science either.
But if you are intent on running OSX of course buying a Mac makes sense...but it's not correct to say that you only can run OSX on Mac's.
I never ever used Microsoft support, but if you feel you need support of course a hackintosh is a bad idea.
And legality...well I really can't care less about artificial restrictions a manufacturer puts on software.
If DRM hinders me to play a file I bought in a certain player I bypass it if I can with no moral remorse whatsoever.
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| AND. where did you find the prizes for the 2.8Ghz Xeon harptown? You can not even buy the 1600Mhz FSB stuff in the PC market yet! At least not where I look for it. |
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True, they are not in stock yet but will be in april according to a few shops.
The price to order one is about €650.
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| Furthermore comparing the prize of your personal selfbuilt DIY upgrade possibility to a complete ready made mac pro can't be serious.. can it? |
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It's very serious because that's the practical reality.
If I felt the need for that kind of power that's how much it would cost me to get it...how is that not relevant?
I'm very happy with the components I have and many of them is higher quality than what you find in a Mac Pro...should I leave them unused just because I want a shiny new Mac?
At least for me some €700 is a worthwhile saving for hours of swapping components and hence highly relevant.
But if swapping mobo yourself is something you think will make you machine into an inferior "DIY" machine I guess Mac is a nice option.
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| So, if, as you, one is 100% sure he will never change OS, and wants to spend 2200 Euros, he could also get the DELL.. but why? |
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Indeed I don't see much reason to buy a DELL targeted for the server market which probably not is very good value for a DAW, but if we talk PC's in general you save a few 100 € and you can customize the machine according to your needs.
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Anyway. Spindrift, your arguments look as if this has become about being right at any prize, not about discussing on a reasonable level, sorry If I'm wrong.
But comparisons have to be made between comparable things. |
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I simply object to that it makes no sense to get a PC if you spend more than €1000.
If you are intent on running OSX and is planning to spend €2200 on a computer Mac Pro might be a perfect match for you.
But it's not a clearly superior option, especially not if you are not planning to use windows.
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 18:46
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On 2008-03-31 18:10, Speakafreaka wrote:
Many tests are full of total bilge IMO, written by people with an agenda.
Look at it logically. If the specs are identical then there cannot be a difference.
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Also worth to note is at least with test done with Abelton performance under OSX is worse than under both XP and Vista.
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 19:03
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and Cubase, and er virtually anything which has a shared code base...
not much sense in optimising for the minority market, candidly!
But TBH honest vista has all kinds of problems.
For example the mouse behaviour has higher priority than audio stream... and this cannot be changed.. and various other little things. Its just not the OS of choice, and I don't see how it ever will be. .
http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 19:51
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Many tests are full of total bilge IMO, written by people with an agenda.
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Sure true, but thats just speculation. We would need to take specific tests and then unprove them etc. So no need to argue about that.
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Look at it logically. If the specs are identical then there cannot be a difference.
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No, thats not true. The surfacial spec. like FSB, CPU speed, RAM etc. can be identical, but the MOBO can slow it all down or make unstable. The basic design of a Motherboard heavily adds to a Computers performance and stability and can not be compared.
Recently I did a computer course where kids learned to assemble and install PCs. We got several old PCs from trash. Then we tried around by switching CPU and RAM between boards with same chipsets and did all sorts of speed checks (sandra, fururmark etc. ). We had a case of a HP which was 20% slower with same RAM, FSB, CPU, then the same components on a ASUS board and other examples between Shuttle mainboard with Asus with IDENTICAL Specifications. We also compared notebooks from Acer with Dell. Same catalogue spec, different speeds.
Many people totally neglect the influence of the Motherboard on the computer. As if it was just wires. Thats a big mistake.
In the same week also compared the school intel macs running Windows with PCs. We did all sorts of test. Fucked around with settings etc. etc. reformated, reinstalled pulled every trick we got. At the end of the week everybody had to admit that todays Macs are the better PCs in terms of speed, noise, design and in many cases even prize. IF compared to TRUELY comparable systems not just upgrading, selfbuilding, or low end.
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Why shouldn't the price of a self built unit be considered? You can buy exactly the same components as Mac use!
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Because that is not the way a discussion and arguing logic works.
Building an own System has another concept in mind, then buying a complete system. There is the advantage of price and flexibilty but the disadvantage of support, work involved and possible troubles. There are other personal priorities, therefore it can not directly be compared. Its like comparing the skills of an Icehokeyplayer to a Soccerplayer.
My arguments all start from the Factor PRIZE! You are proposing ways to reduce the price by choosing a different concept. You can discuss that if you want, but then you don't have to address it to me.
2200Euro for a ready to use mac or a PC.
Logical choice -> go for mac. Thats all I say. And there is no argument against that.
Sure you can spend less, overclock, self made etc. but thats with another set of priorities (mostly reducing price) in mind.
And as for the spec. of a macpro, its not even possible to build a PC for the same prize. I tried just some minutes ago. Its simply not possible, not with the same service, silence, and all bells and wistle the mac pros has in the details.
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Overclocking has come on leaps and bounds too. Many factory components are overclocked within warranty - many motherboards provide dedicated overclocking facilities. Many CPU's provide unlocked multipliers for the sole purpose of overclocking them. A properly overclocked system is totally stable.
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Steinberg for instance refuses any support on overclocked systems, even if they are stable. They are not the only ones. Furhermore you are reducing CPU live time and raising noise level. To avoid that you have to change cooling and there you go with effort and work.. and again you are in a complete different field of priorities.
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Also, I like installing drivers seperately. Call me odd, but when I'm building a DAW I want to know exactly, down to each and every single piece of software that is going on and off my system. Driver packages, by definition remove this level of control.
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Well, thats the heart of a windows user,  , the cool thing about Apple, I just discovered that, that you can trust in what they do. This control (ANY CONTROL) is only needed in an environment/relationship of MISTRUST as a windows user has with windows. So this only proves how burned you are as a windows user needing this amount of control.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 19:55
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Quote:
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On 2008-03-31 18:46, Spindrift wrote:
Quote:
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On 2008-03-31 18:10, Speakafreaka wrote:
Many tests are full of total bilge IMO, written by people with an agenda.
Look at it logically. If the specs are identical then there cannot be a difference.
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Also worth to note is at least with test done with Abelton performance under OSX is worse than under both XP and Vista.
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Can I see these tests? Why are tests suddenly good? Aren't they made from people with an agenda?
As for cubase I did tests myself, opening very complex projects on both platforms. Performance was IDENTICAL. Except I could use more UAD plugins on the UAD cards on MAC.
I did these tests on the schools iMacs, a MacPro 8Core with OSx server edition. and my own PC running hackintosh. (UAD tests only on my PC)
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Mar 31, 2008 21:01
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On 2008-03-31 19:03, Speakafreaka wrote:
and Cubase, and er virtually anything which has a shared code base...
not much sense in optimising for the minority market, candidly! |
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In the case with Abelton my impression is that they have a significant share of mac users, at least judging from the posters at their forum and abletonlivedj.com
If they are a majority I'm not sure, but it definitely a significant part of their user base and at least Robert Henke is a mac user, so I think it's safe t say that it's not due to a lack of interest for the mac platform that Live runs better on windows.
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On 2008-03-31 19:51, subconsciousmind wrote:
Because that is not the way a discussion and arguing logic works.
Building an own System has another concept in mind, then buying a complete system. There is the advantage of price and flexibilty but the disadvantage of support, work involved and possible troubles. There are other personal priorities, therefore it can not directly be compared. Its like comparing the skills of an Icehokeyplayer to a Soccerplayer.
My arguments all start from the Factor PRIZE! You are proposing ways to reduce the price by choosing a different concept. You can discuss that if you want, but then you don't have to address it to me. |
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Sorry but this part is just so wrong I don't know where to start.
The problem to be solved here is not buying in to a concept or not.
As I understand this topic it's about buying hardware for a DAW, and getting something powerful and reliable as well as presumably good value for money.
If you are discussing how to buy in to Apple's concept maybe better bring it to the mac thread?
The fact is that I cannot buy a Mac Pro minus the parts I already got and like to keep.
That means that I would have to spend a lot more getting stuff that might even be inferior to the parts I already have, even if I don't need them.
And the reality is that if I buy I PC I can use parts I like to keep and just exclude them from the order for my new system.
That is a concept available to me to achieve the goal of getting my powerful DAW if I go for a PC...just because you do not get that choice because Apple decided they do not want to give that to you doesn't mean that I have to think in terms of their concept when there is other concepts available that works better for me.
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2200Euro for a ready to use mac or a PC.
Logical choice -> go for mac. Thats all I say. And there is no argument against that.
Sure you can spend less, overclock, self made etc. but thats with another set of priorities (mostly reducing price) in mind.
And as for the spec. of a macpro, its not even possible to build a PC for the same prize. I tried just some minutes ago. Its simply not possible, not with the same service, silence, and all bells and wistle the mac pros has in the details. |
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You say it's a logical choice, but the logic you present is either not present or wrong.
The only instance where there is an obvious logic to buy a Mac is if you will run OSX and don't want to go the hackintosh route.
And getting a PC is not only about price.
It's about being able to choose yourself.
Do you want to easily gain 50% CPU power by overclocking?
Do you want a extremely silent machine?
Do you need a more powerful PSU?
Do you like to be able to choose between a wide range of chassis with enough space for all your HD's or simply a nice design?
Do you not want to pay for bells and whistles you will not use?
Do you want other bells and whistles than the ones included with a Mac?
Maybe the Mac Pro is just right, and in that case it's logical to go for it, but otherwise it's not.
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Steinberg for instance refuses any support on overclocked systems, even if they are stable. They are not the only ones. Furhermore you are reducing CPU live time and raising noise level. To avoid that you have to change cooling and there you go with effort and work.. and again you are in a complete different field of priorities.
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Sorry, but you obviously have no recent experience with overclocking and CPU coolers.
Most modern CPU's have a lot spare pwoer that you can harness without even raising voltages at all.
That means that CPU temperature is only slightly higher under full load.
I can run my Q6600 at 3Ghz at stock voltage and to get 3.2Ghz it's only a tiny bump.
My temps under full load is still far below what could be considered exhausting for the CPU.
That also means that you will not get more noise by overclocking.
My 120mm Noctua always run at low speed and is not even set to change speed depending on temperature since it always enough to run it at a speed which make it inaudible.
And I never had to change cooling since I got a system with good cooler to start with.
As for companies not giving support for overclocked systems...Steinberg doesn't make PC systems and you will not send in your system to them for support, so how they can check if your system is overclocked I do not know.
But if you want to make sure that a problem is not related to overclocking simply have a profile with your overclock and one without.
If the problem persists when at default clocks you can have that profile running when you speak with support.
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| Well, thats the heart of a windows user, , the cool thing about Apple, I just discovered that, that you have no choice but to trust in what they do. |
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Fixed your post
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| This control (ANY CONTROL) is only needed in an environment/relationship of MISTRUST as a windows user has with windows. So this only proves how burned you are as a windows user needing this amount of control. |
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I have no mistrust in Windows.
It runs very well and rock solid for me.
But I do trust myself in being able to decide on my own what hardware that is good for my needs and feel no need to leave those decisions to someone else.
And even if you do not trust yourself, there is plenty of people one can ask for advice, you ask Apple for advice and I ask a dedicated DAW user running the same software and hardware I'm planning to run.
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