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PC Choice
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Mike A
Subra
Started Topics :
185
Posts :
3954
Posted : Mar 29, 2008 13:29
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Quote:
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On 2008-03-29 01:45, subconsciousmind wrote:
There is only one reason to buy PConly Hardware: If you get it considerably cheaper than mac hardware.
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It is cheaper.
And you don't need anything faster than the slowest quad (Q6600, and maybe higher end Phenoms) to make music. Really.
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Mar 29, 2008 14:06
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On 2008-03-29 01:45, subconsciousmind wrote:
As soon as you reach 2000 Euro you MUST buy a MacPro since you get very good hardware MacOS AND Windows.
Spending more than 2000 on PC hardware would be a BIG mistake!!!
Vista has no future, buy a mac anyway. I will and I have been a PC User since 1988.
If you still want windows you can run it on macs too.. so it makes no sense to buy pc hardware anymore. Its just restricted.
I know people who use imacs for 1000Euro for music professionaly... todays CPU performance allows that.
No hassle, mac hardware simply works. No building, no motherboard review reading, no prblems and you do not even have to switch Operating System. You still can use windows.
There is only one reason to buy PConly Hardware: If you get it considerably cheaper than mac hardware.
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I agree that spending more than €2000 on a PC is overkill.
But if you do you can get a whole lot more for your money than with a Mac.
I just upgraded my PC for about €800 (Q6600, 2Gb Corsair 800Mhz CL4, 8800GT, Noctua cooler, ASUS P5K-e wifi, Corsait HX620 PSU)and got a machine that compares very well against the cheapest Mac Pro that would have cost me the double.
Of course I saved a bit since I could use some parts from my old PC, but that is one of the advantages with PC's.
So unless you want to run OSX it's really a waste of money to buy apple hardware.
And even if you like to run OSX it's not that much effort to make sure you get parts that will give you a "hackintosh" so you can run both windows and OSX.
But the main reason why I would never buy Mac hardware is that I really dislike the policies they have against their customers.
I don't respond well to attempts to force me into buying parts or systems from a certain company.
I always avoid products that for example uses proprietary connectors that you only can buy at a ridiculous markup from only one manufacturer.
Apple is the worst company I know when it comes to that kind of business practice.
For example they buy up Logic and make it only run on Mac's to try to force people to buy their overpriced hardware, they make attempts to artificially hinder people to run the OS on other hardware than their own and they make it difficult for people to run 3rd party apps on their iPhones.
I like to have choice instead of having a corporation telling me how I can use software I purchased, and hence it'll be a cold day in hell before I support a company like Apple that does everything to take the power away from the consumer.
I find it very ironic how they can use a slogan like "think different" when in reality what their polices add up to is more akin to "don't think and just do what we tell you".
 (``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Mar 29, 2008 16:55
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IMO, if apple had any kind of business nous, they would be releasing OSX for PC, offically, now, while MS is weak with Vista.
I think an awful lot of people would be interested in that, and FFS, it already runs, there is only comparitively minor tweaking to do. I think the majority of music users for a start would at least consider dual boot systems.
It would be a massive return for relatively little time investment.
Basically, their business model (as it has always been) is completely fuxxored IMO. They stumble from one slicky designed success to another (iPod, iMac) and survive despite their own stupidity. Great R&D, no doubt. Terminally stupid board decisions (which have nearly, nearly killed them on several occassions).
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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Cannabis
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
246
Posted : Mar 29, 2008 18:17
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I donno why you guys go on about Vista so much. It works like a charm here and I am making traxx with it with no problems at ALL.
As longtime mac user, I had to abondone mac because the price and upgrades were no longer justified. Not to mention of the vast VST choice you got on PC.
I wanna make music and not show off my computer chassis or saying I am different or better or richer.
I built my own Vista-PC and I am very happy how things work on it.
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Mar 29, 2008 18:21
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You can do quadcore (not xeon and not that frontsidebus though) for less than what mac costs. Thats true.
But Mac Pro is the cheapest solution for 8 core available!!
Try to build an 8 core xeon.. you will never get as cheap as a mac.
Try to build ANY mac model with PC hardware. You will find the mac prices are very ok.
- Mac Mini, tiny parts, tiny case, same prize if you build a PC with that spec.
- iMac, nothing that small and same time powerful on the market. Mainpart of the prize is for the fact that it is incredible how they can fit all of that into that flat case and the included screen.
- Laptops are a bit overprized, compared to dell, but same or cheaper as quality books from sony and such.
If you look into it closely, do not compare to low end, you will find that mac prizes are not high at all.
But, still, In my opinion mac is doing two big mistakes:
FIRST: They do not have a Mac where you do not have to pay for, included screen, size or design, or the use of top notch xeon components.
That is the ONLY price range / concept where building an own PC makes sense. around 1000Euro.
(What many of you proposed)
SECOND: As speakafreaka sais: They should release OSx for any PC.
I personally know that its NEVER enough CPU. I will go for an 8-Core Mac, since I've always managed to overload my fantastic new CPUs which I thought I would never overload. New Plugins, better sound, more CPU, wanna work 96kHz and pretty soon I will have the 8core down on its knees too 
Bottom line:
Up to 1300 Euro, build an own PC
Over 1300 Euro the performance gain is too small to justify the higher price. Next step is a MacPro (if that much power is needed).
I believe we all agree here.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Mar 29, 2008 18:45
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whatever our personal feelings for or against Vista, there can be no doubt that the general market perception is that its a bit of a 'problem child'.
Therefore, now is the time for a competitor to ramp up a serious alternative.
My personal feelings having used Vista quite extensively in a work environment are unremittingly negative, but that is besides the point.
I wonder how long it is before MS release something diferent... in many ways this smacks of windows 2000. Release a hack job, get feedback, then release the real OS a couple of years later. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Vista's shelf life is extremely short - I'm strongly inclined to bypass it altogether.
What does it say about an OS, when its most dangerous and serious competitor is the OS it was designed to replace? The improvements should be clear cut - they are not. The new system should be more reliable - it isn't.
I'm not as opposed to MS as some people either. The more I see what MS are trying to acheive with say Office 2007, the more I think they are going in a really interesting direction... but sorry, Vista is clearly a dog. .
http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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Mike A
Subra
Started Topics :
185
Posts :
3954
Posted : Mar 29, 2008 19:22
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Why do you need 8 cores for?
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Cannabis
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
26
Posts :
246
Posted : Mar 29, 2008 19:33
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8 cores make better traxx, didn't you know?
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Mar 29, 2008 19:36
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Quote:
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On 2008-03-29 18:21, subconsciousmind wrote:
You can do quadcore (not xeon and not that frontsidebus though) for less than what mac costs. Thats true.
But Mac Pro is the cheapest solution for 8 core available!!
Try to build an 8 core xeon.. you will never get as cheap as a mac.
Try to build ANY mac model with PC hardware. You will find the mac prices are very ok.
- Mac Mini, tiny parts, tiny case, same prize if you build a PC with that spec.
- iMac, nothing that small and same time powerful on the market. Mainpart of the prize is for the fact that it is incredible how they can fit all of that into that flat case and the included screen.
- Laptops are a bit overprized, compared to dell, but same or cheaper as quality books from sony and such.
If you look into it closely, do not compare to low end, you will find that mac prizes are not high at all.
But, still, In my opinion mac is doing two big mistakes:
FIRST: They do not have a Mac where you do not have to pay for, included screen, size or design, or the use of top notch xeon components.
That is the ONLY price range / concept where building an own PC makes sense. around 1000Euro.
(What many of you proposed)
SECOND: As speakafreaka sais: They should release OSx for any PC.
I personally know that its NEVER enough CPU. I will go for an 8-Core Mac, since I've always managed to overload my fantastic new CPUs which I thought I would never overload. New Plugins, better sound, more CPU, wanna work 96kHz and pretty soon I will have the 8core down on its knees too
Bottom line:
Up to 1300 Euro, build an own PC
Over 1300 Euro the performance gain is too small to justify the higher price. Next step is a MacPro (if that much power is needed).
I believe we all agree here.
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Xeon costs some 3-4 times as much as a socket 775 quad core at a similar speed they do not represent very good value, hence almost no-one building a PC DAW uses them.
My Q6600 peaks at about 25% on default clock running Live 7 with heavy use of demanding plugins, and of course even less when clocked to 3.2Ghz, so spending money on a dual Xeon would been throwing away money for me at least.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Mar 29, 2008 20:11
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Quote:
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On 2008-03-29 19:36, Spindrift wrote:
Xeon costs some 3-4 times as much as a socket 775 quad core at a similar speed they do not represent very good value, hence almost no-one building a PC DAW uses them.
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Yes, you are definitly right about that. The power you get is not proportional to the additional money you need to spend.
Thats why I miss a "medium mac" not Xeon, not small, no display. This is the most smart and sold PC concept. Apple is neglecting it.. so stupid.
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My Q6600 peaks at about 25% on default clock running Live 7 with heavy use of demanding plugins, and of course even less when clocked to 3.2Ghz, so spending money on a dual Xeon would been throwing away money for me at least.
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It heavily depends how you work. I manage to overload any system
Since I'm done with windows and there is no "medium mac" I will have no other choice than going for the octa... once I got enough money.. which means... never...
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Mar 29, 2008 20:13
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On 2008-03-29 13:29, Mike A wrote:
Quote:
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On 2008-03-29 01:45, subconsciousmind wrote:
There is only one reason to buy PConly Hardware: If you get it considerably cheaper than mac hardware.
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It is cheaper.
And you don't need anything faster than the slowest quad (Q6600, and maybe higher end Phenoms) to make music. Really.
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I need more, but thats not the point.
All I say is, if you spend more than 2000Euro for a PC you have to go for a MacPro otherwise you are wasting money.
If you want to spend around 1000 Euro go for a PC. I never disagreed here.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Mar 29, 2008 20:36
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Quote:
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On 2008-03-29 20:13, subconsciousmind wrote:
I need more, but thats not the point.
All I say is, if you spend more than 2000Euro for a PC you have to go for a MacPro otherwise you are wasting money.
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But the fact is that for 99% of DAW users spending €2000 on a computer (excluding extras like screen and sound/DSP cards) is a waste.
Even if you do work in 96k a quad core will still do fine for most people, and unless you have perfect DAC's and monitoring, full of DSP expansion cards and excellent studio acoustics, spending double the money to get enough power to run loads of demanding plugs in 96k without freezing is maybe not the best investment.
Especially considering how fast computer equipment get outdated compared to other studio equipment.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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Ellon
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
56
Posts :
1223
Posted : Mar 29, 2008 23:23
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Quote:
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On 2008-03-29 20:36, Spindrift wrote:
But the fact is that for 99% of DAW users spending €2000 on a computer (excluding extras like screen and sound/DSP cards) is a waste.
Even if you do work in 96k a quad core will still do fine for most people, and unless you have perfect DAC's and monitoring, full of DSP expansion cards and excellent studio acoustics, spending double the money to get enough power to run loads of demanding plugs in 96k without freezing is maybe not the best investment.
Especially considering how fast computer equipment get outdated compared to other studio equipment.
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I have to agree with Spindrift....
2000euros????
You can buy a very good PC (without screen or soundcard) for 850euros...silent and performing well!!!! But sure if you really need and can afford a MacPro, it makes the difference....but do you really need it????
Even for people with hi-end needs in terms of sound/performance i dont see a "practical point" in going that way.
https://soundcloud.com/arglebarglemusic
http://soundcloud.com/turvytopsy
http://soundcloud.com/capecodplatform |
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Speakafreaka
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
18
Posts :
779
Posted : Mar 30, 2008 00:49
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its not just about price/performance sorry to say.
there are loads of plugins and sequencers that are available exclusively to one or the other platform.
If you are used to working with an exclusive plugin and make repeated use of it (as I certainly do), sticking with that platform rather then having to relearn your studio is a very valid consideration which is completely outside of the pricing issue.
However, just to highlight how retarded Apple's business brain is, lets look at logic.
The sensible thing to do, as they had software which ran perfectly happily on PC and Mac would be to keep it that way. They thought that by making it system exclusive, they would lure a lot of PC DAW users over to Mac to keep their sequencer. This emphatically did not happen. This move boosted Steinberg sales.
If they had any wit, they would have kept it on PC too, but optimised it for Mac, giving a) useful benchmarking marketing for them, and b) painless transistion for those looking to migrate due to the optimised performance.
There was quite simply no reason to do what they did except out of sheer shortsightedness.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/speakafreaka |
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psylevation
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
52
Posts :
841
Posted : Mar 30, 2008 03:38
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I don't know if anybody said this yet, but stay away from nvidia nforce4 chipsets//It's horrible for pci or firewire audio interfaces
~Airyck~
~Unoccupied Mind ~
Psyowa! |
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