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Overall mixdown levels / techniques
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orange
Fat Data
Started Topics :
154
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3918
Posted : Aug 9, 2005 21:45
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nice topic!
i found my self prefering to bounce my mixes in a -2db but there always are some small peaks in the volume in some parts of the track that reaches maybe 2-4db and ofcourse in the mastering process are compansated with some limiting.
and my question is iff i bounce the mixes in an overall 0db volume those peaky sounds will rise aswell and totaly clip the master bus and the mix will sound realy noisy and the master process is impossible to be apllyied so its not better to have some 2-3-4db headroom before the mastering process so you can punch the volume without the fear of distording limiting?
orange-atropa
  http://www.landmark-recordings.com/
http://soundcloud.com/kymamusic |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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5380
Posted : Aug 9, 2005 23:58
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If you've mixed your track properly, you'll be able to play it through a thousand times, and the total peak level on the master buss will be exactly the same each time. You can use this to your advantage by setting the master buss fader to 0dB, running the track through, seeing how much it overloads the master buss by, and setting this value as the negative offset for your master buss. Eg., if your track overloads the master buss by 5.2dB, subtracting 5.2dB from the master buss level (ie. move it down by 5.2dB) should make sure that the track won't clip.
Don't confuse the level of the actual fader with the volume of the sounds going through it... 
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Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Aug 10, 2005 01:21
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i agree that the 0dbFS is indeed a good technical production and i agree that recording/leveling samples to this magic zero gives us the highes digital resolution of the bits.
but in a musical perspective its not good to focus too much on pushing the mix under the loudest possible level. in my opinion many trax of today of no real dynamic range because they are loosing the macrodymics. means that you should avoid pushing ALL songparts up and search for the deepness and balance and explore any of the 16 bits not only the high ones. i know its not the usually philosophy of the state of the art trance mix, just a point to think at last.
@colin,  ! |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Aug 10, 2005 01:42
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Quote:
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On 2005-08-10 01:21, Kitnam wrote:
in my opinion many trax of today of no real dynamic range because there are no macrodynamics. |
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I agree. My advice on the master buss is something that you only need to worry about once you've finished the track and are ready for the final mixdown.
However... making sure you get the highest resolution when you mix your track down has nothing to do with the dynamic range of the mix as a whole or the individual sounds within it though That's a creative issue, not a technical one.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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orange
Fat Data
Started Topics :
154
Posts :
3918
Posted : Aug 10, 2005 11:36
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yeah i agree about the 0db master buss and this is always the best when mixing the kick and bass sounds but later when the track is more then a kick and a bass some sounds have higher volumes and peaking is noticeable a lot so iff i just lower the master bus volume the 0db master is not apllycable any more.
i cant say that our tracks have volume problems they always sound loud and strong and in 0db but commercial tracks are louder and they are both 0db how my 0dbtrack is not so loud like the 0db commercial one what difference is between them and what difference is in the mastering process and how can be more volume applyed iff it is allready odb?
orange-atropa
http://www.landmark-recordings.com/
http://soundcloud.com/kymamusic |
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Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
39
Posts :
988
Posted : Aug 10, 2005 11:59
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I think its because commercial cd's are often commercially mastered with high end multiband compression and really good limiters that will compress the sound furthur without introducing too much distortion. This creates apparent loudness. The problem with using this much compression is that the track loses much of its macrodynamics like Kitnam said. |
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Mantrix
Started Topics :
4
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12
Posted : Aug 10, 2005 16:05
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So it seems that most people agree that its best to trust your ears on the subject of dynamic range. No formulas necessary. (which is how i've always worked).
If you listen to Infected's Supervisor album, it has a real punch. Looking at their waveforms, the mastering process (which i think they did themselves) includes brick wall limiting in some points of the album... In fact if you run an L3 over it without squashing it, The output meter of the L3 is not moving! The master out of the audio program does move though.
This suggests that when they brickwalled it, it was only limiting certain frequencies, keeping some dynamic range in other frequencies. The album sounds really good yeah?
Or do you think this is another example of music that has not enough dynamic range? |
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Kitnam
Mantik
Started Topics :
110
Posts :
1151
Posted : Aug 10, 2005 16:35
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limiters cause always a loss of dynamic range, this is what they are made for. what i tried to explain is that in many productions the whole track is flatten beyond the maximum until 0dbFS besides of the intro and a few breaks. everyone wants to be the loudest and fattest. but you always lost a bit of deepness in such mixes and often too much in my personal opinion.
a good method to make a mix "louder" without overlimiting it is the routing though transient-processors, which is very difficult but is worth the work with it. sorry, a little bit offtopic but that was just what i want to communicate here.
regards..
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Mantrix
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
12
Posted : Aug 10, 2005 16:40
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Quote:
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On 2005-08-10 16:35, Kitnam wrote:
limiters cause always a loss of dynamic range, this is what they are made for. what i tried to explain is that in many productions the whole track is flatten beyond the maximum until 0dbFS besides of the intro and a few breaks. everyone wants to be the loudest and fattest. but you always lost a bit of deepness in such mixes and often too much in my personal opinion.
a good method to make a mix "louder" without overlimiting it is the routing though transient-processors, which is very difficult but is worth the work with it. sorry, a little bit offtopic but that was just what i want to communicate here.
regards..
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Actually, i think you're perfectly on topic!
You're now bringing up the solution.
Please explain a bit more about Transient Processors? Is this during mixdown or mastering? |
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Mantrix
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
12
Posted : Aug 10, 2005 16:43
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Are you talking about expansion? |
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parapsyched
Scratch 22
Started Topics :
72
Posts :
548
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 17:15
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ok . so lets talk about the topic some more... how do u set your Db levels... ?
do u do premixes b4 the final export...?
like kick bass export. than perc. than leads . than pads etc. ?
and another thing... is it just me or does the L2 just changes alot in the timbre of the track?
oh and btw infected`s supervisor album... (which imo is pop-trance mostly  ) sounds amazing.
if u dig deep enough u just might reach the sky...
"dream is destiny"
http://www.scratch-22.com |
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Yuli
Retired
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
1660
Posted : Aug 11, 2005 19:44
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Quote:
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On 2005-08-08 20:15, Colin OOOD wrote:
Make it sound good without clipping the master buss - that's the bottom line. It doesn't really matter what level you have the channel faders at (although somewhere between -9 and -5dB is probably a good place to start with the kick) as long as the balance of the track is good. If it ends up that you're clipping the master buss - no biggie. Just turn the master fader down so that it doesn't clip.
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I completely agree with this statement and I want to add some info that is not scientifically backed up ( as I am too lazy as to reading manuals... ) but it works for me and is rather logical when I use my imagination ( I find it very usefull to picture the picture of the sound of my tracks in my head )
It is very important to pan elements of the track right and left not only to make wide stereophonic image of the production made, but also to reduce unnecessary pressure from the center of the image where the kick and the bass are situated. This can help keeping the so important low frequencies on snares, toms and percussions, as well as pads and random lead sounds, and still keep the dynamics of the track without clipping it.
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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orange
Fat Data
Started Topics :
154
Posts :
3918
Posted : Aug 13, 2005 14:29
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C3PO
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
29
Posts :
510
Posted : Aug 14, 2005 02:44
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About digital clipping, i've noticed that in last couple of
years i finally learned to clip digital systems, it's actually
depends on the digital signal chain. Sometimes a clipping
can happen in the DAC's, and sometimes inside the system.
AD/DA clipping - some converters sound ugly when clipped,
and some of them can saturate the signal, so it sounds
good enuff to my ears, and even the waveform looks good.
Internal DSP clipping - some digital processing algorythms
sound disgusting when clipped, and some actually
can add a nice sounding analogue-like saturation.
My point is, that each digital audio system should be
checked for clipping side effects at the moment of gain
calibration, just run couple of sinewaves and square ones
through your digital audio signal chain - and hear how
different elements of your system respond to clipping.
ez
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C3PO
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
29
Posts :
510
Posted : Aug 14, 2005 02:50
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