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Overall mixdown levels / techniques
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Mantrix
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
12
Posted : Aug 8, 2005 19:04
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Hi Everyone,
Firstly this is my first post and I'd like to say Thankyou to everyone involved with this site! Its fantastic that everyone is sharing their time and knowledge selflessly. I have learned a lot in just a couple of days reading! I'll do my best to help out with any advice I can offer as well.
Ok, so my main question mark about audio at the moment is about the "Industry Standards" of overall levels when mixing down.
I read in a post by Brod, that setting the kick to -5db, and the bass to -5db is a good place to start... But what i'm finding is that if I do that, even with them sidechained, the signal will sit up at around -3db or even higher. I found that this didn't leave much room for the rest of the track... I've grouped it all, and limited the bass group, which has helped, but I'm still having to run a limiter over the master out to avoid clipping...
Can anyone give a nice thorough explanation of this topic? How you do your mixdowns, any master inserts, what levels things should sit at, do you test how it will sound mastered etc etc.
Thanks in advance
Rich
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sideFXed
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
22
Posts :
430
Posted : Aug 8, 2005 19:49
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Hi Mantrix
Even tho I'm not really experienced in this topic I was researching the same recently. So with those volumes for basslines and kick you're right, tho I'd suggest you to lower the bassline abit, so the kick will remain the peaking signal. When it comes to leads and fx, I'd suggest you to aim for a level around -12db, trust your ears. For very dynamic parts you can try to aim for -18 db. Maybe it helps you to make a group channel for different kinds of leads and use different compressor settings to tame down the peaks of those leads. Always good is to roll off some low end, a good point to start is for leads around 350-450 hz, bassline around 90 hz, kick 40 hz. These numbers are not fact, as I said, trust your ears.
At the end it is good to have some headroom left on the stereo bus, aim for -3 db. Don't get me wrong, the world won't end if you have some clips, but overall you wanna have a bit of headroom for postprocessing.
For the limiter on the master chain, that's a big NO NO. I'd suggest you to use compressors on individual tracks or groups, and it's not wrong to limit after using a compressor. The limiter on the stereo bus will destroy your signal and you lose dynamics.
I'd be very happy to get some answers too if I got this absolutely wrong. Correct me please:)
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
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Posted : Aug 8, 2005 20:15
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Make it sound good without clipping the master buss - that's the bottom line. It doesn't really matter what level you have the channel faders at (although somewhere between -9 and -5dB is probably a good place to start with the kick) as long as the balance of the track is good. If it ends up that you're clipping the master buss - no biggie. Just turn the master fader down so that it doesn't clip. If you're exporting 32-bit masters (and you should be!) this will have absolutely no effect on the quality of the mixdown. And even if you're exporting at 16-bit, the mix buss always works at 32-bit so even there you're not losing much (although you might want to stick a dither plug-in on the master buss to increased your perceived bit-depth).
As for headroom on the master buss, these days you don't need it - especially if you're exporting 16-bit masters. It's easy to compensate for a loud mix when mastering - the only thing you can't do is recover detail lost if you're only using half the bits in a 16-bit mixdown.
 Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Willy Wonka
Inactive User
Started Topics :
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Posts :
574
Posted : Aug 8, 2005 21:23
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I don't think kick and bass can be at same dB, well it depends on bass and kick sounding.
I try to make both of them sound as louder as possible so both of them won't reach sidechain group channel at -5dB, this is important for me since i need space for pads, leads and percussion which probably will take it's place in mix. sO in my opinion it is matter of ears and wish what dB elements are!
HD-Headroom is very important factor, you must have HD before track is mastered because else you won't leave a place for mastering compression, thou you always need to balance between individual channel HD and whole mix HD! Some elements could have less HD , some elements could have natural HD. Depends what are you wish or "if you know at all what are you wish"! COlin mentioned you don't need HD these days because it is easy to compensate a loud mix without HD left, thou i don't agree with him. Maybe i need better explanation. Why? How? and Where?
Track dB as you probably read, digital systems limit the signal above 0dB, so probably you don't want to reach that dB, as well we need headroom for mastering(as explained before). SO it is time to find your own settings for each individual track. To say "i start with kick and bass -5dB" is like to say "cut all above 30hz(when probalby most of sounds don't even have that region so you dumbly apply EQ)" or to say "each apple has same taste (when it's generalizing and stupid".
What i generally do is.
Kick and Bass group, apply compressor on both channels for harder sounding if needed. Apply sidechain on group if needed (side chain is basically cutting bass by using kick's envelope as cutting region. SO if your bass never hits kick at the same moment (delays included as hit) then you probably don't need sidechain at all between kick and bass)
Then i level percussion, i like high volumed high percussion so i make it tasty high and heard (for my own style and genre it is common). Rest i leave for pads, effects and leads. Each one of these can be sidechained with bass and kick group to get better mix, thou i don't like sidechaining of high percussion to kick bass group since you always hear one of openhats or other hats go up and down by volume, dependant on it's placement (ie. Benni Benassi_-_ Sfaction_psycz! joke it made by other group).
Cheers if you have questions ask them by try to not generalize things as some do, it is totally wrong and useless. |
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sideFXed
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
22
Posts :
430
Posted : Aug 8, 2005 21:34
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just a quick thought. maybe it helps you to investigate what other artists do. it helps to analyze a good mastered cd with a spectrum analyzer like SPAN www.voxengo.com (free) or PAZ Analyzer from waves. it will show you a chart of the frequency spectrum and in the waves one you'll see how the stereo field is used.
hope that helps. |
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Willy Wonka
Inactive User
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
574
Posted : Aug 8, 2005 21:42
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No it's not, it's like poor form statistics, you just get general information about which frequencies other artists use, while you can use different ones so your graphical indication will be different.
To compare your music to released CD, even worser idea since it is already been mastered. |
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sideFXed
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
22
Posts :
430
Posted : Aug 8, 2005 21:49
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so mr. wonka I think you're full of shit hehe... it helped me. when it comes to post processing, less is more. As Colin said, make it sound good without clipping. with a spectum analyzer you get a general idea how it should sound in the end. I think the starter of this thread doesn't even know how to properly post process with a multiband, a mastering limiter like voxengo elephant, let alone stereo enhancing tools (neither I do). BUT he'll get a general idea what he has to look out for (eg. RMS, level of leads, level of kick etc.)
at the end I think you just wanted to show off your e-penis am I right? |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
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Posted : Aug 8, 2005 21:52
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Quote:
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On 2005-08-08 21:23, Willy Wonka wrote:
HD-Headroom is very important factor, you must have HD before track is mastered because else you won't leave a place for mastering compression... |
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I'll get on to this in a second 
Quote:
| ...thou you always need to balance between individual channel HD and whole mix HD! Some elements could have less HD , some elements could have natural HD. Depends what are you wish or "if you know at all what are you wish"! |
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When dealing with digital audio, it is important to have your sounds as loud as possible withing their files, otherwise you will not be using all the dynamic range available to you and your signal/noise ratio will suffer. This is especially important if you are working with 16-bit samples. Once the track has been mixed down to a stereo file, individual track headroom becomes a meaningless concept as there are no longer individual tracks to i[]have[/i] headroom, just the stereo mix.
Quote:
| Colin mentioned you don't need HD these days because it is easy to compensate a loud mix without HD left, thou i don't agree with him. Maybe i need better explanation. Why? How? and Where? |
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It's easy... simply pull down the output faders of any mastering processing you apply that raises the output level over 0dB. Some plugins even provide a special button that automatically reduces the output level by however much it was over 0dB, eg. Waves. I mix down my own tracks so that they peak as close as possible to 0dB, and I ask my mastering clients to do the same. This maximises the dynamic range used in the track and provides optimum quality. The need for headroom is a carry-over from the days of analogue recording where it was neccesary to allow extra headroom for the accurate capture of transients that might peak well over the average level of the sound concerned. This is neccesary when recording to digital too, but in general things like VSTis are much more predictable and the results they give are much more repeatable, so that if you know what you're doing you can bounce down individual sounds so that they peak right at 0dB.
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Mantrix
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
12
Posted : Aug 8, 2005 22:23
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Thanks for your replies ...
Actually I am experienced with all the tools and have been mixing down for years, but I want my current album to basically really punch. It all looks good on spectrum analysers but I can hear it needs some group eqs and group compression.
When we started the mixdowns we got our kicks and basslines grooving together and sitting at -6b an the master while playing together. We mixed from there and ended up with no clips on any track, but utilising all the dynanmic range. We were happy with that but I felt it was lacking some punch.
I feel that Group eq and compression could give it the punch...
When you go into Group Processing the possibilities are endless, so I thought I'd find out if there was a norm or a standard for levels before mastering.
The Groups I am mixing are:
1.Kick + Bass + sub action - mono
2.Hats
3.Percussion
4.Leads
5.Other Sounds
6. All sounds except for Kick + Bass
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Willy Wonka
Inactive User
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
574
Posted : Aug 8, 2005 23:04
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I won't respond to that twat, mods delete it please |
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : Aug 9, 2005 01:51
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Wow Colin... Thanks for the education about headroom. I had always thought the same as mr. Wonka about leaving 3dB of headroom. I think I might have to go back and do all new mixdowns on my tracks.
I was having an issue where I have a large amount of dynamic range in my tracks. I was being incredibly cautious about my volume level of each channel and making sure I left a lot of room... Now I can turn my bass up a little more. It's kinda funny, you tend to notice the dynamic range thing less when you are djing, because you can just adjust the trim on the mixer, but I was doing some live sets in Ableton and really noticed that the dynamic range in the beginnings of my tracks didn't match up to the dynamics coming out of the end of a previous song... I think that by worrying less about leaving a whole bunch of headroom then when it comes to the mixdown, I might be able to have a little less dynamic range, I do like having some dynamic range to it, but I was thinking that I was going a little overboard. I'm going to try some of the suggestions made and I'll report back and let you know what happened... Thanks you guys, I had really been wondering about this...
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
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Posted : Aug 9, 2005 07:07
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No problem Mubali - but there are no hard and fast rules (what I wrote is only my [relatively-educated] opinion and I'm just waiting for UnderTow to jump in and say, "Actually Colin, that's not quite correct..." ) In general the higher bitdepth you work at, the less you need to worry about banging your samples right up to 0dB as there's enough dynamic range available for you to be able to convert even a fairly quiet 24-bit wave to 16-bit without introducing too much quantising noise when you turn it up again on the fader I guess I still have a strange collection of old habits gained over the last bunch of years working with analog and then 16-bit sound!
Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
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Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
39
Posts :
988
Posted : Aug 9, 2005 12:34
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Of course it's smart to use the full dynamic range available when making mixdowns, since there's no reason not to do it. But as Colin said there's enough dynamic range when you're working at 24 or 32 bits. The dynamic range of 24 bits recordings is 144 dB, so worrying about the top 3 dB is not really necessary. |
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Psylopath
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
13
Posts :
87
Posted : Aug 9, 2005 14:33
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aren't the last 3dB the ones with the most punch-potential? as far as I know db are not liniar, so the more you come to the end of the scale, the more is the "ludness range" of a single db.
I've read a toturial from a german sound engineer, who said that the trick of a punchy mixdown is to use max possible loudness of every track (inkl master channel),and he was talking about digital sequencing.
he also included a sound-sample of his mixing work, and the thing was more powerfull than a lot of mastered tracks I know.
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Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
39
Posts :
988
Posted : Aug 9, 2005 15:19
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Yeah, but in the end you maximize the track to -0.3 dB anyway, so i guess it's more about the relative loudness differences between the mixer tracks then it is about the absolute loudness of these tracks. You probably won't hear a lot of difference in the final mixdown if you maximize a dynamic range of 140 dB or 143 dB to 144 dB. your music will have all the punch you need. |
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