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out of curiousity, How many of you guys make a good living with music alone?
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shamantrixx
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549
Posted : Apr 8, 2008 15:36
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On 2008-04-08 15:12, bukboy wrote:
Shamantrix - What do you think of evolution, survival of the fittest/strongest. Why should it be wrong for the smart and capable to use the weak for whatever purpose. Thats the law of nature after all. Its just going on all around, all through history, and the only reasons people are shouting about it now is coz they got some education which they wouldnt have gotten otherwise.
Lets be honest, it happens and it wont stop coz its more real than morals or religious beliefs. Why fight it? Its the nature of the human organism.
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Evolution is really ability to adapt. Biological evolution was a struggle of the fittest, but we've finished this stage more than 100.000 years ago. Since than we're having an intellectual evolution and the struggle of the fittest is a technique used by those who failed to evolve intellectually.
Evolution is a self replicating process so we can take a parallel example. Struggle of the fittest is a reptile stage of evolution. Small brain, big muscles, claws and teeth, eating their young if necessary... that kind of stuff. Birds are really the reptiles with more developed brain who are able to survive with far less muscle power and take much more care about their offspring. Mammals have evolved brain even more than birds and they have a concept of family, pack, tribe, nation, humanity... So clearly, if evolution means anything it means less muscle power and struggle in exchange for more intellect, care and nurturing.
I guess that answers your question quite well. If it stays the way it was... than it's not really evolution... it's a stagnation... right? As much as some would like it to stop... it's not going to. As a matter of fact, for long time evolution had been kept in the box and now it's time for "reptiles" to evolve or to face an extinction.
  "It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
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549
Posted : Apr 8, 2008 15:50
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On 2008-04-08 15:30, xrust wrote:
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On 2008-04-08 15:04, shamantrixx wrote:
At the end of the day, everything that americans have is stolen or earned on slave labour. Let's not forget countless invasions all over the world (Panama, Salvador, Chile, Columbia, Nicaragua, Cambodia, Vietnam, Afganistan, Iraq, Kuvait, Lebanon, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Greece etc.), |
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sorry for the offtopic but you are talking about american invasion in greece??
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In 1964 America installed a junta in Greece using CIA and american military powers. This is a quote from a President of America regarding this "issue":
"Then listen to me, Mr. Ambassador," said the President of the United States, "fuck your Parliament and your Constitution. America, is an elephant. Cyprus is a flea. If these two fleas continue itching the elephant, they may just get whacked by the elephant's trunk, whacked good . . . We pay a lot of good American dollars to the Greeks, Mr. Ambassador. If your Prime Minister gives me talk about Democracy, Parliament and Constitutions, he, his Parliament and his Constitution may not last very long."
Open your eyes... education is largely just a propaganda written by the winers. Mostly it's far from truth 
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
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40
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Posted : Apr 8, 2008 15:57
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What Im actually asking is Y should "slavery" or genocide be wrong? Where by slavery I mean not physical slavery but economical slavery of the "reptiles", like exploitation by capitalists, starvation wages, no health care, no social support, no education, no upward mobility for the "reptiles".
Taking the resources by force from "reptiles" who cant defend themselves and exterminating them like the red indians who were technologically and socially backward compared to the expanding europeans.
Why should that be so wrong? Clearly it seems that we have entered a new stage of evolution, whereby individuals have to compete with other workers for lowest wage around the world. Countries no longer have the weight they used to have to protect their inhabitants from 3rd world low cost labourers.
Also Banks have made it extremely easy for anyone to have debt via credit cards to generate revenue from interest.
But all in all people call this behaviour bad. Whereas I just think its part of evolution. I want to know whats so bad about it. |
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xrust
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 8, 2008 16:00
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ok if you say so
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
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40
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803
Posted : Apr 8, 2008 16:01
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Wink wink |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
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549
Posted : Apr 8, 2008 18:07
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On 2008-04-08 15:57, bukboy wrote:
What Im actually asking is Y should "slavery" or genocide be wrong?
But all in all people call this behaviour bad. Whereas I just think its part of evolution. I want to know whats so bad about it.
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I don't argue that it is wrong since both right and wrong are arbitrary concepts without "objective" reference in the real world.
I'm just saying that this kind of system works only as long as the majority continues to work for minority while competing among them selfs for lousy jobs. As soon as we switch to cooperative mode and refuse to serve the minority (as we have done so far) the minority will have to adapt or face the extinction. There will be no use of force. Just massive civil disobedience such as you can see right now if you turn on your TV and search for news about olympic torch traveling the globe
Evolution has reached the phase of informational evolution. That means the end of hierarchy and shift to transparency. Information is power... not money or weapons. Get used to it... you've lost already. You just don't believe it yet. But soon you will.
The reign of minority IS over. Power is in hands of less than 10.000 people. What are they going to do? What did the british do when Ghandi refused to cooperate with the system? They packed their bags and return to England. But now there's no "England" to return to... so what will they do? Beg for forgiveness? 
ps: I actually like your attitude on this subject. I really hate to see when those who ware exploiting others suddenly show "remorse" for what they've done so far just when they are about to pay the price for their deeds. And we all pay in the end "It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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cytopia
Cytopia.org
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61
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329
Posted : Apr 8, 2008 21:19
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On 2008-04-06 22:45, shamantrixx wrote:
Major concern is not related to method that they suggest but rather to how we're going to force the system to work differently when the system is under control of power, and power will not consider giving it self away. The power will (as always) use power in order to stay in power. And that's a major problem thou it lies outside the philosophy of "spiraling dynamics".
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The system may be in the power of people who have no interest to change, but that does not mean that many other people, like us, cannot evolve to embrace higher values. Whether us embracing higher values will change the system, is unknown, but the more people evolve, the more of a momentum and movement we create, the more we are examples, the more we show an alternative.
Just because the truth does not fit into, or may not instantly change the system, is no reason not to enquire as to what the truth is. And as far as I have seen, development is quite impersonal, there are stages people go through on a personal level, and also stages cultures through on a collective level. Spiral dynamics is just a tool to look at the development on a collective level so that it makes some sense, and gives us some terminology to be able to talk about it.
The problem is often what is referred to as an unnatural hierarchy, where as can be seen in many places, the most conscious people are not the ones who are making the decisions, and this is indeed something that is challenging to overcome.
Cytopia.org
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sly
Started Topics :
3
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183
Posted : Apr 8, 2008 22:54
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On 2008-04-08 18:07, shamantrixx wrote:
Evolution has reached the phase of informational evolution. That means the end of hierarchy and shift to transparency. Information is power...
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hey shamantrixx, if your music is as good as your philosophy, i really should listen to it
honestly, i feel you from the bottom of my heart (maybe cause we read the same books
on the other hand i also understand the other people discussing in this thread even if you obiviously can't hide your superior intelligence (no offense meant here, seriously).
right now i work for companies who just want to make money and nothing else. but i go to university and sometimes it's almost impossible to chose how i get my money. even if i feel guilty to help people to fuck up others...
not to mention that if i find time to make music at all, it's very difficult to forget all that suffer and pain i the see whole day and find some inspiration.
agree with you on that subject of expectancy of life (i know you used other expressions). what the f**k people say if you ask them what expectancy of life they have? 70? 80?
what i expect from life is love, joy and unity. think we missunderstand a very basic thing.
although, i grew up and live in this weird society and i built up my things here.
think a lot of changing my situation, but at the moment it would be a too huge step. so long i just support that kind of systems and it makes me sick. in this point i have to agree with elad.
hope you know what i mean (difficult in english)...
@ everybody: better think about what shamantrixx writes. it has a lot of background and probably it is the first step to make a more livable world...
and sham mate, just go on and stay like you are (or maybe not), i'm with you  |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
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549
Posted : Apr 9, 2008 03:50
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On 2008-04-08 21:19, cytopia wrote:
The system may be in the power of people who have no interest to change, but that does not mean that many other people, like us, cannot evolve to embrace higher values. Whether us embracing higher values will change the system, is unknown, but the more people evolve, the more of a momentum and movement we create, the more we are examples, the more we show an alternative.
Just because the truth does not fit into, or may not instantly change the system, is no reason not to enquire as to what the truth is. And as far as I have seen, development is quite impersonal, there are stages people go through on a personal level, and also stages cultures through on a collective level. Spiral dynamics is just a tool to look at the development on a collective level so that it makes some sense, and gives us some terminology to be able to talk about it.
The problem is often what is referred to as an unnatural hierarchy, where as can be seen in many places, the most conscious people are not the ones who are making the decisions, and this is indeed something that is challenging to overcome.
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I agree 100%. We should embrace higher values and higher responsibility no matter what the outcome will or will not be. To do any different would be (again) the act of calculated egotism. So it's not that I don't see the value and place in the world for spiraling dynamics... I just think that beside that we should also seek the way to take control over the system and use it in the way that spiral dynamics suggests.
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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shamantrixx
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
549
Posted : Apr 9, 2008 04:09
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On 2008-04-08 22:54, sly wrote:
right now i work for companies who just want to make money and nothing else. but i go to university and sometimes it's almost impossible to chose how i get my money. even if i feel guilty to help people to fuck up others... |
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You just need to apply the critical thinking to what you're saying and you will soon find a ghost in your point of view.
To feel guilt you have to be responsible for some mistake made out of your free will. If you don't survive than the world has one person less with an attitude that the world needs to change. When you are dead you can not help anyone... right?
So doing what you MUST do to survive is justified so long as you're aware of the wrong method that you use. Keeping that in mind you will cease the first opportunity to make a different choice as soon as one appears on a radar screen. Until than you can not be responsible (and thus guilty) for not making a choice which you didn't have in the first place
However... this is utterly different from justifying your own deeds and maintain the position that you don't need to change even if you get the chance to choose otherwise. This is clearly where you are quite different form some others in this topic. It's much harder to live knowing that you're forced to do things against your own value system than simply deny everything and pretend to be cool (what is exactly what most of people do).
So bottom line is that there is no reason for you to feel any guilt until you have a choice to do things in a different way and you chose not to act upon it. Only than you can be thought as being responsible for the outcome. As long as you keep a healthy attitude about what you do you're doing just fine... Choices will be available in the future to all who want to have them.
So... let go of guilt... there's no logical or intuitive reason for you to feel that way
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception"
Albert Einstein, speaking about his theory of relativity |
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Fragletrollet
Fragletrollet
Started Topics :
111
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1748
Posted : Apr 9, 2008 06:13
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
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40
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803
Posted : Apr 9, 2008 10:29
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Shamantrix - I dont think that its a case of exploitation of the many by the few. It used to be like that but these days its more like the low wages of the workers to the high profits of the investors. And its not a case of 100:1 workers to investors ratio, its more like 1:5. investors with abstract reasoning ability and foresight simply plan their future better than the peasants without education and who are already laden in debt. This is not a case of exploitation and evil which will be paid for eventually by the masters etc. its a case of evolution selecting intelligent people over brawny people. Brawn is not as important for survival as it was in the past.
But irrespectively its just amoral evolution.
But anyway back to the topic: Now the point of this thread is about making money from music, and that was where I was getting to but first I wanna comment on the nature of trade.
What is your perception of trade? That its basically going to the marketplace and paying money for a product and every1 does the same?
What that perspective leaves out is that trade is a global organism that exerts every1 to the pressures generated in other markets. Value of traded products is dynamically altered in a gigantic integration equation that is constantly performed around the world. Together the world decides what is valuable via trade as the main facilitator. Money and value of tradeable goods are like floating entities, subject to change and all value only exists because of the existence of this gigantic network of individuals who in concert decide on what is valuable.
(This leaves out ofcourse basic necessities but music is not a basic necessity.)
Now back to the music. To consider that a commercially valuable form of music is inferior to another that has different arbitrary principles is to say that something that is decided by mass convention has the wrong intrinsic value. Music in itself has no intrinsic value, and only has value as a result of convention.
So now. Back to the question of music for money. The task of the artist is to generate a form of music that the mass will find valuable(willing to trade their work for it), as opposed to one that noone finds valuable. In the context of evolution, given that people are unequal, It is up to the artist to exert the superiority of his entity by generating greater value than his peers. Evolution is now based on generating value from intellect not brawn, and if u wanna be one of the more evolved u have to get smarter. So me hearties get to it, make stuff that PEOPLE will like, not that snooty self important, spiritually superior fucking hippies with no money only inflated egos will like.
Peace be with u and all that jazz
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Boobytrip
IsraTrance Junior Member
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39
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988
Posted : Apr 9, 2008 12:32
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On 2008-04-09 10:29, bukboy wrote:
The task of the artist is to generate a form of music that the mass will find valuable(willing to trade their work for it), as opposed to one that noone finds valuable. Peace be with u and all that jazz
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I think that it is up to the artist to decide whether he's in it for the money and/or for something else. For me, my music has to be valuable for myself. I make it like it is because i like it that way.
Salaam alaikum my brother. |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
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803
Posted : Apr 9, 2008 12:46
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let me rephrase, The task of a "successful" artist. i.e. one favoured by evolution, is to generate a form of music that the mass will find valuable(willing to trade their work for it)
Even small artists do this. Its just self indulgent "artists" who dont bother making music that other people wanna hear.
Just becoz some1 makes music doesnt autmatically make them an artist. self professed "art" without value is not art. They have to get paid to get that label.
People are gonna now say van gogh made art intrinsically that was only discovered later. Irony is that it demonstrably only became art when it was discovered, until then it was trash that no-one would consider buying.
What exactly is art? Its most important component is the ability to create emotions within us. But that is entirely subjective, some people prefer technical mastery in whatever genre, others prefer shmalzy country music.
Y does art create emotions in us? because it appeals to our senses and our states of mind. so it would appear that the evolutionary superiority of one artist over another is being able to create a piece that generates the most emotions held dynamically at one time by as many people as possible.
A sort of guessing game of what will appeal to the senses of the audience ensues.
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
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Posted : Apr 9, 2008 13:20
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Interestingly some attempting "artists" just get lucky, because the sound they personally like gets picked up and they enjoy a wave of fame, and then quickly recede when they dont guess the next trend. That is the fate of the prospective "artist" who doesnt adapt and is locked in a self important prison of personal values.
To create art is tricky, one has to employ respected techniques in NEW ways, that inspire NEW emotions. Dynamically staying afloat in an ever changing ocean of humanity, appealing to the largest slice of similar needs and expectations.
Evolution weeds the good from the bad. |
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